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Thread: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

  1. #41
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawg in Dallas View Post
    I am not ignoring facts, you are. Both Elvis and I have provided you the links to the secession papers. Are you claiming those papers are fake, or not factual?
    I feel like I am arguing with JSHD. IMO, you so badly want to make this a war of good vs. evil that you refuse to consider the truth.
    I will try once more, then I will invoke Herchel Rule #3.

    No one disputes why the people in power of the Southern States invoked the articles of secession. That is not the issue.
    1. Why was the Emancipation Proclamation issued in 1863, not 1861? Helpful hint. Lincoln was getting his ass kicked. If Atlanta hadn't fallen, he would probably lost the 1864 election. He wished to incite a slave rebellion, which didn't happen. He didn't give a damn about the slaves. In fact, he wanted them deported to Africa.


    2. Why did draft riots occur in NYC? Why did crowds drag nine black men from their homes and lynch them? Why did they burn a black orphanage to the ground?

    3. Why did Grant and Sherman state that they didn't fight to free the slaves?

    Just a wild guess, but the war wasn't fought over slavery. All wars are fought for the same reason. One country has something that the other country wants. The Confederacy was the 4th richest nation on Earth in 1861. Shazamm!
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  2. #42
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    Quote Originally Posted by Herchel View Post
    I feel like I am arguing with JSHD. IMO, you so badly want to make this a war of good vs. evil that you refuse to consider the truth.
    I will try once more, then I will invoke Herchel Rule #3.

    No one disputes why the people in power of the Southern States invoked the articles of secession. That is not the issue.
    1. Why was the Emancipation Proclamation issued in 1863, not 1861? Helpful hint. Lincoln was getting his ass kicked. If Atlanta hadn't fallen, he would probably lost the 1864 election. He wished to incite a slave rebellion, which didn't happen. He didn't give a damn about the slaves. In fact, he wanted them deported to Africa.


    2. Why did draft riots occur in NYC? Why did crowds drag nine black men from their homes and lynch them? Why did they burn a black orphanage to the ground?

    3. Why did Grant and Sherman state that they didn't fight to free the slaves?

    Just a wild guess, but the war wasn't fought over slavery. All wars are fought for the same reason. One country has something that the other country wants. The Confederacy was the 4th richest nation on Earth in 1861. Shazamm!
    It isn't a good versus evil thing for me, it is a basic recognition that the South left because of slavery - hence that is why the war was fought. The Southern states clearly indicated that in their declaration of secession. What GENERALS said after the war started is not the genesis of the war. One looks to the documents creating the the split, not to what a soldier says AFTER the war begins.

    What you claim isn't the issue is EXACTLY THE ISSUE as spelled out by the states leaving. To claim otherwise is to attempt to rewrite history, as if we don't have the documents from the states leaving easily available.

    Let's again look to the Georgia papers:

    The party of Lincoln, called the Republican party, under its present name and organization, is of recent origin. It is admitted to be an anti-slavery party. While it attracts to itself by its creed the scattered advocates of exploded political heresies, of condemned theories in political economy, the advocates of commercial restrictions, of protection, of special privileges, of waste and corruption in the administration of Government, anti-slavery is its mission and its purpose. By anti-slavery it is made a power in the state.
    IOW, Georgia didn't need to see an emancipation proclomation to know what was up. Why do you?

  3. #43
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    Civil War expert: North fought to preserve Union

    by Ted Strong
    Feb 21, 2011


    Modern conceptions of the Civil War grossly underestimate the importance of political union as a motivator to the northern psyche, said Professor Gary W. Gallagher, speaking Monday at the Miller Center of Public Affairs at the University of Virginia.

    The 150th anniversary of the conflict’s start will be in April.

    While modern audiences might easily see the abolition of slavery as a noble cause clearly worthy of sacrifice, many northerners were largely indifferent on the subject, coming to endorse it only in terms of a punishment for the rebel South, he said.

    Instead, the professor argued, the chief motivating factor for the North was the concept of the country as an inviolable union. The citizens and their leaders prized the freedoms they had won in the American Revolution and saw themselves in sharp contrast to the oligarchical setups then in favor in Europe, he said. Northerners viewed the South as the domain of moneyed aristocrats and feared that allowing the country to split would mean, essentially, the death of the republic. So they felt they had to force the Confederate states to rejoin the United States.

    “They believed to do otherwise would betray the generation who established the Union, as well as future Americans,” he said.

    While the modern American takes the stability of our country’s democracy for granted, citizenry at the middle of the 19th century understood that the country could easily lose what it had, less than a century ago, gained, he said.

    At the same time, the professor said, the South’s decision to leave the Union was almost entirely predicated on the question of slavery. He described the move as an “anticipatory gamble,” not a principled stand for states’ rights.

    Thus, northerners were fighting to preserve the Union, southerners to preserve slavery, he said.

    In passing, Gallagher also disagreed with a number of other widely held beliefs about the Civil War:

    Lee didn’t outclass all the northern generals, he argued. Instead, the South had better generals in the East, while the North had better generals in the West. Lee was the best Confederate general, but the North ultimately found several men capable of leading entire armies, he said.

    And while the Southern forces were outnumbered, the fight wasn’t a doomed cause, Gallagher said.

    He joked that many act as though “it was Robert E. Lee and 11 guys, and they only had five shoes among them.” In truth, the fight was actually much closer, he said. Indeed, the South merely needed to convince the North to quit the war, a decision largely made by the civilian population and one the Confederates came close to pulling off more than once, he said.

    Audience member William Moore called Gallagher one of the best authorities on the Civil War.

    “He gives a very balanced position based on his long study and research,” Moore said. “He’s nationally known as an authority on the subject and he speaks with great authority and enthusiasm.”

    Gallagher is the John L. Nau III Professor in the History of the American Civil War at UVa. His latest book, “The Union War,” will be published in March.

    Larry Rubendall, also in the audience, has seen him speak several times.

    He said, “He’s very interesting, very entertaining.”

    http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/ci...06bf4d927.html


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  4. #44
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    The preservation of theunion meant resolution of tbe issue that caused the South to leave. That issue plainly and clearlt spelled out by the secession papers as well as the cornerstone speech was...slavery.

  5. #45
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle


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