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Thread: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

  1. #11
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawg in Dallas View Post
    And by dearest right, I mean the ability to own another person.
    Marse Robert freed his slaves. He was referring to self-determination.
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  2. #12
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    Quote Originally Posted by Really Big Bama Fan View Post
    If slavery had existed into the late 1890's the abolitionists in the South would have occupied the place in society that was instead taken by the temperance unions and the advocates for Prohibition. Christian moralists would have ended slavery through traditional Southern religiosity.
    You assume anyway.

    I see you didn't contradict my statement so I guess my previous statement is true.

  3. #13
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    Quote Originally Posted by Herchel View Post
    Marse Robert freed his slaves. He was referring to self-determination.
    Good for him. That doesn't exonerate the rest of the slaveholders or the various states (for example Georgia or South Carolina) stated purpose in their articles of secession.

    the beginning of Georgia's declaration of secession:

    The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic.
    There is no point in denying what the dearest right was when it is mentioned right up front by the various states when they left the union.

  4. #14
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    Quote Originally Posted by Really Big Bama Fan View Post
    Yes, and slavery would have eventually gone the way of Apartheid. The slavery issue merely gave the moral high ground to the war crimes of Sherman, to the pillaging of the South during Reconstruction, and to unbridled growth in federal powers.
    Should state here that I don't think General Lee's statue should be removed, but seeing RBBF mis-state facts, not opinions, but facts. is too much.

    Who should we believe. RBBF or what the States said were their reasons when seceeding.
    declarations
    Quote Originally Posted by Mississippi
    Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin...
    Quote Originally Posted by South Carolina
    The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due." [editor's note: this is the Fugitive Slave Clause in the original Constitution whereby the North promised to return escaped slaves to their "owners" in the South]

    This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River....

    This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens [editor's note: this is refering to former slaves or their descendants]; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Georgia
    The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Texas
    In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States....
    This seems like a tough one to figure out.
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  5. #15
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    I wonder if today's African Americans have ever considered where they would be today without slavery.
    Deo Vindice

    "Put a federal agency in charge of the Sahara Desert and it will run out of sand".

    Peggy Noonan





  6. #16
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvis View Post
    Should state here that I don't think General Lee's statue should be removed, but seeing RBBF mis-state facts, not opinions, but facts. is too much.

    Who should we believe. RBBF or what the States said were their reasons when seceeding.
    declarations






    This seems like a tough one to figure out.
    My point is General Lee's first loyalty was to Virginia. People didn't consider themselves Americans in 1860. Rather, they were New Yorkers, Ohioans, Georgians, etc. Lee didn't approve the articles of secession, nor did the soldiers who fought for the Confederacy. They were defending their states.
    Deo Vindice

    "Put a federal agency in charge of the Sahara Desert and it will run out of sand".

    Peggy Noonan





  7. #17
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    Quote Originally Posted by Herchel View Post
    My point is General Lee's first loyalty was to Virginia. People didn't consider themselves Americans in 1860. Rather, they were New Yorkers, Ohioans, Georgians, etc. Lee didn't approve the articles of secession, nor did the soldiers who fought for the Confederacy. They were defending their states.
    Like I said,I disagree with General Lee's statue coming down. He undoubtedly has a complicated and rich history. I'm well aware of his hallowed place at West Point. In some ways Lee represents both the best and the worst of his era. Much like the founding fathers and other men in the early to mid 1800's

    I was just pointing out that RBBF is factually wrong when he states or implies that the Southern States reasons for secession was about anything other than slavery. It's a falsehood and is provably false based on the statements made by the States at the time of secession.
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  8. #18
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    Quote Originally Posted by Herchel View Post
    I wonder if today's African Americans have ever considered where they would be today without slavery.
    Wow!! I am sure they should be giving thanks that their ancestors were owned. Perhaps they should pay a special thank you tax to the descendants of slave owners.

  9. #19
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    I don't think any statue should come down - it all has historical reference, regardless of how complicated.

  10. #20
    Administrator Herchel has a great deal of respect on the forumsHerchel has a great deal of respect on the forumsHerchel has a great deal of respect on the forumsHerchel has a great deal of respect on the forumsHerchel has a great deal of respect on the forumsHerchel has a great deal of respect on the forumsHerchel has a great deal of respect on the forumsHerchel has a great deal of respect on the forumsHerchel has a great deal of respect on the forumsHerchel has a great deal of respect on the forumsHerchel has a great deal of respect on the forums Herchel's Avatar
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    Re: No more General Lee at Lee's Circle

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawg in Dallas View Post
    Wow!! I am sure they should be giving thanks that their ancestors were owned. Perhaps they should pay a special thank you tax to the descendants of slave owners.
    They should. Without slavery, they would be in Rwanda or Burundi, where Hutus slaughtered 700,000 Tutsis because they were from the wrong tribe. Or they could be in Sudan, where Muslims are committing genocide against the Animists in Southern Sudan. Or they could be in Ethiopia or Somalia so they could die from starvation.
    Or they could be on the Rice Coast where slavery is in full bloom.

    How ironic is this? More slaves were exported to the Arab states than to North America. I wonder if Black Muslims know this. Probably not.

    I am not an apologist for slavery. However, it was the custom of the time. Read the Bible.

    I just find it ironic that the current beneficiaries of slavery want to revile their meal ticket. They are doing a great job of it.

    DinD:
    I know you are an honest man. I just think you have been brainwashed by the revisionist history taught to you. For example, the Great Emancipator issued this decree in 1863, not 1861. The goal was to foment a slave rebellion, which didn't occur. He didn't care about the slaves. In fact, he was a segregationist. He wanted them deported to Africa.
    The war was not fought over slavery. Both Grant and Sherman stated that they didn't fight to free the slaves. rather, they fought to preserve the Union. The war has been presented to later generations as good vs evil. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
    Deo Vindice

    "Put a federal agency in charge of the Sahara Desert and it will run out of sand".

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