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Thread: SEC awards

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    Re: SEC awards

    I disagree on a lot of that, but I'm happy we won the league. Thats not subjective. Id be okay never having another POY or COY if it meant we won the league every year.

    How Cal doesn't win is beyond me. He lost 5 guys and still won the league by two games. The job he did between recruiting and in game winning is the best. It just is IMO, but I can see Mike White winning given how that award normally goes. (For Cal to beat Mike White without a second team PG in the defacto championship game is quite impressive. Cal only eins COY when we have a perfrct season and thats not fair).

    What really annoys me is how Sindarius Thornwell is POY over Malik Monk. I wont even get into that one further.

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    Re: SEC awards

    Agree about Monk, no way he isn't POY. Disagree about COY. White followed a bona fide legend, and finished second in the SEC with a team not nearly as talented as UK. White got more out of his team IMO
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    Re: SEC awards

    Quote Originally Posted by kentubbybasketball View Post
    I disagree on a lot of that, but I'm happy we won the league. Thats not subjective. Id be okay never having another POY or COY if it meant we won the league every year.

    How Cal doesn't win is beyond me. He lost 5 guys and still won the league by two games. The job he did between recruiting and in game winning is the best. It just is IMO, but I can see Mike White winning given how that award normally goes. (For Cal to beat Mike White without a second team PG in the defacto championship game is quite impressive. Cal only eins COY when we have a perfrct season and thats not fair).

    What really annoys me is how Sindarius Thornwell is POY over Malik Monk. I wont even get into that one further.
    Why? Monk averaged .001 more points per game than Thornwell. Thornwell averaged more rebounds, steals, assists, blocks, and shot the same from the free throw line. He also played 4 different positions and often guarded the opposing teams best player. Let's not forget that he was voted on the all defensive team as well. All this while playing 6 less games.

    I guess it must be a stigma against South Carolina teams. I mean they're South Carolina, they can't possibly have a player win SEC Player of the Year.

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    Re: SEC awards

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama_Man View Post
    Agree about Monk, no way he isn't POY. Disagree about COY. White followed a bona fide legend, and finished second in the SEC with a team not nearly as talented as UK. White got more out of his team IMO
    Since when is it Cal's fault what talent Mike White has. If you grade on a curve, I guess I get it. However, these coaches all can recruit whoever they want. Recruiting is the most important part of the job. Even if we say Xs and Os wise White was better, the difference there is not enough compared to the difference on rhe recruiting side where Cal trumps White by a lot. Recruiting is part of what made Cal win the SEC. Using that as a qualifier to say he shouldn't be COY seems odd to me.

    The way Cal recruits bare mimimum makes him a candidate every year. To me the best coach in a given year is usually the one who won the championship. If we are saying it goes to who got the most out of his talent, did White get more than Bryce Drew did at Vandy given what Vandy lacks (i.e. no PG and a lack of post D) and considering he swept White?

    Furthermore what does who White following Billy D have to do with this year. Billy was under .500 his last year for all intents and purposes. Likewise, Cal followed the dumpster fire that was Billy G at UK. He deserves credit for that imo. People think what Cal does is easy and just overlook him. If it were easy everybody would be doing it. Cal had one of his best years here, and in a weak league I think he was the best coach in the totality of recruiting, coaching, and winning. The only area you could sort of argue White was better was in coaching and that's not forgone.

    And yeah White did finish second. Somebody is always going to finish second. Does that automatically shoo them in simply because Cal recruits so well? Arkansas finished second two years agi when we started 38-0. Mike Anderson wasn't coach of the year then.

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    Re: SEC awards

    Quote Originally Posted by JRS View Post
    Why? Monk averaged .001 more points per game than Thornwell. Thornwell averaged more rebounds, steals, assists, blocks, and shot the same from the free throw line. He also played 4 different positions and often guarded the opposing teams best player. Let's not forget that he was voted on the all defensive team as well. All this while playing 6 less games.

    I guess it must be a stigma against South Carolina teams. I mean they're South Carolina, they can't possibly have a player win SEC Player of the Year.
    That's all fair but Monk was on a 2 loss SEC team. Go back and look at the history of the award. It usually goes to the best player on the best team. If Monk had a 4OT game maybe he wouldve scored 47 against Bama too. I dont care much about the stats. Stats can say what you want, and if USC chooses to be a one man team, why does thatbpenalize Monk in your mind? Looking at the games and results, Monk affected winning much more. A POY on a 6 loss team in a weak league when another guy is the 4th frosh to lead the SEC in scoring on a 2 loss champion seems odd to me.

    Monk was the AP POY for the SEC, so I'm happy he got that one at least.

    The idea he played 6 less games than Monk actually supports the case for Monk. Lets not act like Thornwell was injured. He got suspended for his own bad behavior/neglience.

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    Re: SEC awards

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama_Man View Post
    Agree about Monk, no way he isn't POY.
    Why? Monk got buckets and that's it.

    Thornwell literally did everything for that team.
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    Re: SEC awards

    Quote Originally Posted by kentubbybasketball View Post
    That's all fair but Monk was on a 2 loss SEC team. Go back and look at the history of the award. It usually goes to the best player on the best team. If Monk had a 4OT game maybe he wouldve scored 47 against Bama too. I dont care much about the stats. Stats can say what you want, and if USC chooses to be a one man team, why does thatbpenalize Monk in your mind? Looking at the games and results, Monk affected winning much more. A POY on a 6 loss team in a weak league when another guy is the 4th frosh to lead the SEC in scoring on a 2 loss champion seems odd to me.

    Monk was the AP POY for the SEC, so I'm happy he got that one at least.

    The idea he played 6 less games than Monk actually supports the case for Monk. Lets not act like Thornwell was injured. He got suspended for his own bad behavior/neglience.
    Thornwell was more valuable for his team than Monk was to UK and that is a fact. Without Monk UK just plugs in another 5* recruit and carries on, maybe not to the tune of 26 wins but still over 20. Without Thornwell SC does not win 22 games and would not be going to the tournament.

    Also, there is more to basketball than just scoring. I believe you brought up an argument a few years back about the difference between Downey and Wall and that there is more than just scoring. Wall filled up the stat sheet in more areas than scoring. That is the case this year with Thornwell, he did more than just score.

    Did you even watch the Bama game? If it wasn't for him there wouldn't have been a first overtime let alone 3 more.

    Be happy with the AP award, I believe I would trust what SEC coaches think over the Associated Press, these are the people who had to game plan for him after all.

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    Re: SEC awards

    Maybe Thornwell was more valuable (tho I'm not sure how to measure that), but is it called player of the year or most valuable player? I get there's more than just scoring btw, but the object of the game is to score. Score more than your opponent. FWIW, Im not the one using stats to try to make an argument here. That's you. Monk's value went beyond simply scoring points. We lose 4 games without him going off for 25 in second halves this year. That's winning. Rebounds and assists don't matter if you're losing. Thats value to use your words.

    By the way, these same coaches youre touting are coaching in the weakest SEC in decades. Two of which have been fired and another whose AD had to give a vote of confidence for today. Congrats man. I am happy with an SEC championship, something Thornwell wasnt "valuable" enough to win. We can argue who deserves poy more. No arguing who the champ is.

    These same coaches youre touting could only muster 2 wins over Monk, while 6 beat Thornwell. Maybe thats why this league is struggling. As a math teacher that math doesn't add up. It is amazing how Monk is higher up on All American lists nationally and draft boards. Thornwell had taken 4 years to get to this level. Monk has done it in one year. Is Cal that much better of a coach than Frank or is Monk simply better???
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    Re: SEC awards

    Quote Originally Posted by kentubbybasketball View Post
    Maybe Thornwell was more valuable (tho I'm not sure how to measure that), but is it called player of the year or most valuable player? I get there's more than just scoring btw, but the object of the game is to score. Score more than your opponent. FWIW, Im not the one using stats to try to make an argument here. That's you. Monk's value went beyond simply scoring points. We lose 4 games without him going off for 25 in second halves this year. That's winning. Rebounds and assists don't matter if you're losing. Thats value to use your words.

    By the way, these same coaches youre touting are coaching in the weakest SEC in decades. Two of which have been fired and another whose AD had to give a vote of confidence for today. Congrats man. I am happy with an SEC championship, something Thornwell wasnt "valuable" enough to win. We can argue who deserves poy more. No arguing who the champ is.

    These same coaches youre touting could only muster 2 wins over Monk, while 6 beat Thornwell. Maybe thats why this league is struggling. As a math teacher that math doesn't add up. It is amazing how Monk is higher up on All American lists nationally and draft boards. Thornwell had taken 4 years to get to this level. Monk has done it in one year. Is Cal that much better of a coach than Frank or is Monk simply better???
    Lol this is the same exact argument you gave during the Wall vs Downey debate but the one who averaged more points per game did not win the POY award.

    To counter your point about losing 4 more games without Monk going off, SC loses a hell of lot more games without Thornwell going off almost every night. You missed the point about stats, my point was that each category that Thornwell excelled more than Monk proves that it isn't just scoring that makes you a complete player. Thornwell did every little thing night after night. Sure it took him 4 years but damnit he earned it.

    You sure are ripping these SEC coaches pretty hard. How many SEC games have you coached? How many college games have you coached? High school? Middle School? These coaches forget more basketball knowledge in a day than you will ever know in your lifetime. They are the ones who are in fact making hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars every year to coach the game. You're a math teacher, far from a basketball coach.

    Monk is higher up on draft boards based off potential. He has the potential to be a great player. Doesn't mean he's better than Thornwell at this moment.

    No one is arguing who won the SEC championship. Be happy with the championship and congrats. Just don't rip down a very good SEC player who earned the right to be named SEC POY in the process.

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