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gmecockrugby
02-03-2009, 04:21 PM
what are everyone's top 3 picks for players of the year in the sec right now.....

RailroadGin
02-03-2009, 04:24 PM
1. Jodie Meeks
2. Tyler Smith
3. Nick Calathes/Devan Downey

Djshockley3
02-03-2009, 04:33 PM
Meeks or Downey, I would say Downey because without him USC would have lost 6-7 games.

Rocky@theTop
02-03-2009, 09:25 PM
Meeks
Patterson
Calathes

gatorchomp91
02-03-2009, 10:38 PM
Meeks
Downey
Calathes
















Everyone else in the league

fodive
02-03-2009, 10:48 PM
Devan Downey...for once he plays for the better team than the UK guy - and that was always the excuse as to why Kelly/Downey didn't win POY before...

Wave&Dawgs
02-03-2009, 10:53 PM
Gotta at least put Varnado in the conversation. What he does on defense is just as valuable as what most of those guys do on offense IMO. Added to the fact that his offense has improved drastically this season, I think he should at least be in the conversation.

BleedPurpleandGold
02-04-2009, 03:57 AM
Yeah, Marcus Thornton shouldn't get any consideration.

UA37
02-04-2009, 07:09 AM
The final four at the moment for me are: Downey, Meeks, Thorton, and Calathes in that order.

IBCocky
02-04-2009, 07:51 AM
Downey
Meeks
Thornton

VandyChuck
02-04-2009, 10:24 AM
Downey
Meeks
Calathes
Thorton

In that order...

orange&white
02-04-2009, 12:31 PM
Eddie Fogler surprised me the other day and said Tyler Smith is the best college basketball player in the SEC and most SEC coaches he talks to continually say the same. I don't think he will win POY, but just throwing it out there since he isn't getting any love for the award anymore.

kentubbybasketball
02-04-2009, 01:46 PM
1. Jodie Meeks



2. Nick Calathes


3. Devan Downey

I think there is still a significant gap between Jodie and the rest of the pack that includes Calathes, Downey, Patterson, and perhaps Varnado. I think it can't be overstated the impact that Jodie's 54 point game on ESPN had, especially to AP writers and such,who probably haven't seen much SEC action this year. I also think Jodie is likely to win the coach's award, it seems as if people are really gunning after him in their defensive philosophies.

GoCommies
02-04-2009, 02:08 PM
Downey
Meeks
Calathes
Thornton

Sleepers: Fortson and Jeff Taylor, depending on how those teams finish. If either goes on a run and finishes 2nd in their division, they might get some serious consideration. That's a much bigger IF for Taylor given Vandy's recent struggles.

In the end, I think Calathes will win b/c his team will have the best record. That said, Downey's the MVP. Big difference b/w POY and MVP.

kentubbybasketball
02-04-2009, 02:10 PM
I gotta say it's unlikely that a freshman will win SEC POY when there are options like Downey, Meeks, Calathes, Thornton, Smith, and Patterson.

MSUado
02-04-2009, 02:12 PM
I think it's Meeks no question.

Calathes and Devan Downey would be my next two and then Patrick Patterson, Tyler Smith, and Marcus Thornton would be at the bottom of the list.

kentubbybasketball
02-04-2009, 02:15 PM
I think it's Meeks no question.

Calathes and Devan Downey would be my next two and then Patrick Patterson, Tyler Smith, and Marcus Thornton would be at the bottom of the list.

So, in other words, we agree completely.

I think Meeks is a clear favorite and anybody that denies that isn't paying attention to what's happened with the award previously. This usually does come down to point total and that's clearly in his favor. I think his historic game also set him apart as well. I do think the gap is closing, but I don't see that anybody is necessarily playing better than him, since he's had 20 in every game, except for last night.

I do think Calathes and his triple doubles are a worthy challenger though.

MSUado
02-04-2009, 02:16 PM
So, in other words, we agree completely.


Hmm. Yeah I guess we do.

kentubbybasketball
02-04-2009, 02:17 PM
I can understand putting Downey and Calathes in the conversation.

I think while UK has played badly, you can't fault Meeks for that at all. His play has been as great as anybody that's recently won the award.

kentubbybasketball
02-04-2009, 02:22 PM
FWIW, most people have Jodie Meeks in the NPOY discussion, and as a second team All-American. I don't think any other SEC player is on that level based on this season.

NCMISSSTFAN
02-04-2009, 03:06 PM
Meeks
Downey
Calathes

IMO Meeks is the clear cut favorite, he has been consistant all season long and along with Patterson, is the heartbeat of UK right now.

VandyChuck
02-04-2009, 03:26 PM
I'm just sayin...If the vote was TODAY, I would probably give it to Meeks, but things are TRENDING towards Downey, and I could totally see him winning it.

kentubbybasketball
02-04-2009, 03:30 PM
Downey has some ground to make up to even pass Calathes, who's leading the league in assists, which is astonishing since Downey is the true PG. And, Downey has better passing options too IMO. Calathes is the only guy that fills the stat sheet up more than even Tyler Smith. I'm not sure Downey is even ahead of Calathes right now, let alone Jodie Meeks.

I do agree that the race isn't as decided as it was maybe after the Auburn game that Jodie had, but his level of play hasn't dropped off too much, and I'm not sure Downey's has risen enough to cement his name on the trophy.

When a guy's worse SEC game is a 15 point "clunker" he's the favorite for SEC POY, until somebody takes it away from him.

gmecockrugby
02-05-2009, 12:15 AM
downey is 5th in assists and first in steals so its not like he doesn't do other things...match that with 2nd in ppg is a pretty good season....but right now id have to say meeks. i just think its the little things that you cant put a stat on that downey does so amazingly

UA37
02-05-2009, 08:00 AM
Downey has some ground to make up to even pass Calathes, who's leading the league in assists, which is astonishing since Downey is the true PG. And, Downey has better passing options too IMO. Calathes is the only guy that fills the stat sheet up more than even Tyler Smith. I'm not sure Downey is even ahead of Calathes right now, let alone Jodie Meeks.

I do agree that the race isn't as decided as it was maybe after the Auburn game that Jodie had, but his level of play hasn't dropped off too much, and I'm not sure Downey's has risen enough to cement his name on the trophy.

When a guy's worse SEC game is a 15 point "clunker" he's the favorite for SEC POY, until somebody takes it away from him.


That somebody is Devan Downey. The kid is just playing lights out lately. He showed up UK and Meeks on UK's home floor. He made the same clutch shots againts UF in Columbia, while Calathes choked the game away. I think Thorton is really going to make a run at it too. It's definitely going to be a tight race this year with a lot of guys deserving.

OffThePorch
02-05-2009, 08:45 AM
Meeks, Downey, Huertas, Calathes, Mitchell, Thornton, Smith are all in the mix at this point... imo.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 11:33 AM
downey is 5th in assists and first in steals so its not like he doesn't do other things...match that with 2nd in ppg is a pretty good season....

Who's said he's not had a "good season?" Heck, he's had a great season, like he did last year... but leading the SEC in steals last year still didn't win him the award over Shan Foster. FWIW, I picked Downey third on my list. I think he's been great this year.


i just think its the little things that you cant put a stat on that downey does so amazingly

Isn't that true for just about any POY candidate though?

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 11:35 AM
That somebody is Devan Downey. The kid is just playing lights out lately. He showed up UK and Meeks on UK's home floor. He made the same clutch shots againts UF in Columbia, while Calathes choked the game away. I think Thorton is really going to make a run at it too. It's definitely going to be a tight race this year with a lot of guys deserving.

In what way did Downey show up Meeks? USC won the game sure, but "showing up?" You're acting like Dick Vitale with all that hyperbole now. Jodie still had over 20 points in that game. If anybody has showed up anybody this year, it's been Jodie Meeks put over 30 on 6 opponents this year, and 54 on one team. Let's be serious.

JRS
02-05-2009, 12:01 PM
Doesn't player of the year usually go to the best player on the best team? If so, then it ain't Meeks right now.

VandyChuck
02-05-2009, 12:04 PM
Vandy had the 2nd best team last year and it went to Shan...year before it went to Byars who wasn't on the best team either.

Like I said, if Downey and USC keep playing like this, he'll likely win it. He's the hot name among voters right now. Meeks is a victim of his own hot start at this point with some games lately that haven't been nearly as noteworthy.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 01:22 PM
Doesn't player of the year usually go to the best player on the best team? If so, then it ain't Meeks right now.

If it were that simple JRS, would we be having a debate about it?

Granted from 2001-2006 it did go to a guy that won the title or at least won his division.

But, seeing as how scoring has a big thing to do with this (as simplistic as that is), Jodie Meeks is the one right now.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 01:25 PM
Vandy had the 2nd best team last year and it went to Shan...year before it went to Byars who wasn't on the best team either.

Like I said, if Downey and USC keep playing like this, he'll likely win it. He's the hot name among voters right now. Meeks is a victim of his own hot start at this point with some games lately that haven't been nearly as noteworthy.

Chuck, which games haven't been noteworthy. I think anytime you consistently score 20 in this league, it's noteworthy or worthy of player of the year regardless, especially since he's also among the best perimeter defenders. Hearing all the SEC coaches talk about how much time they spend "gameplanning" against Jodie, I think that has to help his case as well.

Granted, a guy isn't going to score 54 points a game all the time, but at the same time only ONE guy has scored 54 in a game on a BCS team in the last 10 years... his name is Jodie Meeks. So, if that's what he's got to do to be noteworthy... nobody's been that noteworthy this year.

But, Chuck, what separates Calathes and Downey in your mind?

JRS
02-05-2009, 02:10 PM
If it were that simple JRS, would we be having a debate about it?

Granted from 2001-2006 it did go to a guy that won the title or at least won his division.

But, seeing as how scoring has a big thing to do with this (as simplistic as that is), Jodie Meeks is the one right now.

If Downey keeps scoring at the current pace, and SC wins 10-11 league games, he'll probably be named SEC POY.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 02:30 PM
Downey is averaging 20.4 ppg. Jodie is averaging 25.1 ppg. Both teams are like 5-3 I believe... so both teams are on pace for 5 or 6 wins in the second half of the SEC season, but Jodie is clearly in the advantageous position when it comes to scoring pace.

In SEC play Downey's scoring has been at a 20.3 clip (putting him even behind Marcus Thornton). Jodie in SEC play is at 26.4 ppg. So, if scoring and points are your determining factor, Marcus Thornton should be favored over Downey as well, seeing as how they've only lost once and he's scoring 1.3 more ppg.

So, "current scoring pace" does nothing to pump Downey over Meeks at all.... whether you're looking at the whole season or just SEC play.

Ultimately, Jodie Meeks got national acclaim by putting 54 on somebody... 54. In order to esclipse that Downey is gonna have to be even more special, considering he doesn't even get as much exposure as Jodie to begin with.

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 02:34 PM
The award is Player of the Year, not Scorer of the Year. Downey averages more assists and steals and is a better defender than Meeks. Meeks simple looks to score, Downey gets his teammates involved. That's a true player.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 02:48 PM
That's exactly right, but if you think scoring isn't the "king stat" in all this you're naive and need to brush up on your history desperately. As for assists, if I wanted to go that route... what's Nick Calathes, chopped liver? Calathes would get the award under the scenario obviously. Jodie is a scorer as you say... that's what UK needs him to do. We don't need him to facilitate offense the way Downey does, so in that sense it's futile to compare games.

As for defense. Darrin Horn himself has criticized Downey for his defense. The only problem Meeks has on defense is that he gambles too much, but I don't expect him to steal the ball as much as Downey does. Downey's man usually has the ball more than Meeks' man typically will. But, in other defensive stats, Meeks is clearly a better rebounder and I'd say he's obviously a better shotblocker due to size, since you wanna get technical.

And, in terms of "true players." There's a reason Jodie is in everybody's All-American list and is in mock draft first rounds this year. Downey is in neither as it stands now.

To me that's like saying Gary Payton is better than Michael Jordan, since GP was considered perhaps a better defender, had more assists, and probably more steals. Only a fool would suggest that in comparing those two.

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 03:09 PM
That's exactly right, but if you think scoring isn't the "king stat" in all this you're naive and need to brush up on your history desperately. As for assists, if I wanted to go that route... what's Nick Calathes, chopped liver? Calathes would get the award under the scenario obviously. Jodie is a scorer as you say... that's what UK needs him to do. We don't need him to facilitate offense the way Downey does, so in that sense it's futile to compare games.

As for defense. Darrin Horn himself has criticized Downey for his defense. The only problem Meeks has on defense is that he gambles too much, but I don't expect him to steal the ball as much as Downey does. Downey's man usually has the ball more than Meeks' man typically will. But, in other defensive stats, Meeks is clearly a better rebounder and I'd say he's obviously a better shotblocker due to size, since you wanna get technical.

And, in terms of "true players." There's a reason Jodie is in everybody's All-American list and is in mock draft first rounds this year. Downey is in neither as it stands now.

To me that's like saying Gary Payton is better than Michael Jordan, since GP was considered perhaps a better defender, had more assists, and probably more steals. Only a fool would suggest that in comparing those two.

Where do I start? Comparing Meeks to Jordan? I'll leave that one alone. Meeks is considered an All-American candidate largely based on the 54 point game. Yes he is a very good scorer- the best in the league. But he's not the POY bc in my the POY should be more than a scorer. Both Calathes and Downey do more for their team. Both make there teammates better. Meeks looks his shot- doesn't matter if that's all he is asked to do- it's what he does. Calathes averages more blocks, assists, and rebounds. Downey averages more assists and steals and is close to his scoring totals (might even be better if you take out the one 54 point games- huge boost to average). Both of these guys do this while playing fewer minutes.

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 03:22 PM
That's exactly right, but if you think scoring isn't the "king stat" in all this you're naive and need to brush up on your history desperately. As for assists, if I wanted to go that route... what's Nick Calathes, chopped liver? Calathes would get the award under the scenario obviously. Jodie is a scorer as you say... that's what UK needs him to do. We don't need him to facilitate offense the way Downey does, so in that sense it's futile to compare games.

As for defense. Darrin Horn himself has criticized Downey for his defense. The only problem Meeks has on defense is that he gambles too much, but I don't expect him to steal the ball as much as Downey does. Downey's man usually has the ball more than Meeks' man typically will. But, in other defensive stats, Meeks is clearly a better rebounder and I'd say he's obviously a better shotblocker due to size, since you wanna get technical.

And, in terms of "true players." There's a reason Jodie is in everybody's All-American list and is in mock draft first rounds this year. Downey is in neither as it stands now.

To me that's like saying Gary Payton is better than Michael Jordan, since GP was considered perhaps a better defender, had more assists, and probably more steals. Only a fool would suggest that in comparing those two.


Here's a little history for you when it comes to SEC POY

Year POY - Scoring Title
08 - S. Foster - S. Foster
07 - D. Byars - C. Lofton
06 - G. Davis - G. Davis
05 - B. Bass - K. Winston
04 - L. Roberts - J. Reed
03 - K. Bogan - R. Slay
02 - E. Dudley - J. Hayes
01 - T. Prince - R. Dupree
00 - D. Langhli - D. Langhli
99 - C. Porter - J. Jones

3 times in the last 10 years as the scoring leader won the POY. Seems to me history dictates that it's more than just scoring.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 03:23 PM
Where do I start? Comparing Meeks to Jordan? I'll leave that one alone.
I never once compared Meeks to Michael Jordan, and if that's your first line of defense to my post, you have no defense. The only thing they have in common is their jersey number. But, what you brought up was a comparison between a scorer vs what you assume to be a better defender/passer. I played your same game and won on the highest level, NBA players.


Meeks is considered an All-American candidate largely based on the 54 point game.

No kidding. Who would have thunk it? Duh! But. being fifth in the nation in scoring doesn't help, going beyond just one game.


Yes he is a very good scorer- the best in the league. But he's not the POY bc in my the POY should be more than a scorer. Both Calathes and Downey do more for their team.

That's your interpretation of the award and you're entitled to it. I'm using recent history though, and it's clear the better scorers typically tend to win. That's just how it is.


Both make there teammates better. Meeks looks his shot- doesn't matter if that's all he is asked to do- it's what he does. Calathes averages more blocks, assists, and rebounds. Downey averages more assists and steals and is close to his scoring totals (might even be better if you take out the one 54 point games- huge boost to average). Both of these guys do this while playing fewer minutes.

Once again, I'm glad Jodie looks for his shots. All 11 other coaches would have Jodie looking for his shot as well... that's called "common sense," and using a player's strengths. Just as Calathes' strength is a well-rounded game a la Tyler Smith.

I think it's clear that all three guys do what their coaches ask them to do and they do it well.

You're talking to the wind if you're trying to convince me Calathes and Downey are great players. I've known that since they both started playing in the league last year. At the end of the day, Jodie is better this year... and most people (posters here, media figures) seem to concur.

But, you can take out Jodie's 54 point game, take it. He still has a 46 point game, and 5 total other 30 point outings... he'd still be on top. But, why take out his best scoring game. That's like taking out Calathes best rebounding game and saying it makes him stats seem more human. Obviously, Sherlock.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 03:27 PM
Here's a little history for you when it comes to SEC POY

Year POY - Scoring Title
08 - S. Foster - S. Foster
07 - D. Byars - C. Lofton
06 - G. Davis - G. Davis
05 - B. Bass - K. Winston
04 - L. Roberts - J. Reed
03 - K. Bogan - R. Slay
02 - E. Dudley - J. Hayes
01 - T. Prince - R. Dupree
00 - D. Langhli - D. Langhli
99 - C. Porter - J. Jones

3 times in the last 10 years as the scoring leader won the POY. Seems to me history dictates that it's more than just scoring.

When you can show me where I suggested the scoring champ/leader and the SEC POY should be the same guy, I'll concede your list of the past PsOY is relevant. Otherwise, pay attention to what I posted and not what you think I posted.

I'm saying scoring makes a huge difference... I said it's the "king stat." Each of those guys that won POY had high scoring seasons.. hence, they won the award. However, what makes Meeks different from them is that he's setting an SEC pace that we haven't seen since Chris Jackson likely. So, it's futile to compare scoring leaders to SEC POY the last ten seasons, since we've got a guy scoring at a clip this year that's not been seen in those years you highlighted. There's different circumstances this year, and there's a guy that's lighting up the league so much that he is the favorite right now.

At the end of the day, the attention Jodie got for himself, his team, and the SEC and all the records he broke and his continuing to challenge makes him a clear cut favorite as many non-UK fans have said in this thread already. Jodie is scoring 4 points more than the next closest person.. that's a huge gap. I think the national attention alone is something that the other contenders are gonna have to overcome to get it over Jodie. How do you esclipse a guy getting 54 on the road against the SEC favorite on ESPN. I'm sorry but "scoring 33 vs Auburn" on LFS isn't gonna get the same attention for Downey.

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 03:31 PM
Whatever you say KT. You know you're whole premise of Meeks being POY is bc he scores so many point. I'm saying history shows the award going to guys who do more than score.

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 03:34 PM
And I understand your comments about not directly comparing Jordan to Meeks. But let's think about it. Jordan was MVP bc he made everyone around him better and carried his team to championships. Meek doesn't make everyone better and hasnt' (I bet won't) carry his team to a championship. Jordan was much more than just a scorer. A better comparison might have been Gilbert Arenas- scores a ton but wait- doesn't win awards.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 03:35 PM
Whatever you say KT. You know you're whole premise of Meeks being POY is bc he scores so many point. I'm saying history shows the award going to guys who do more than score.

Heck yeah, that's my premise. Why should I deny that. I think that's as evident as UK is playing badly right now.

Too bad history doesn't show that a guy who scores 25 points gets more leeway with the other stats... and why doesn't history show that, because it's uncommon in SEC play for a guy to be averaging 26 points in SEC games.

Since you want to check stats, go check to see how many 25 ppg scorers didn't win SEC POY since the great days of Pistol Pete.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 03:37 PM
And I understand your comments about not directly comparing Jordan to Meeks. But let's think about it. Jordan was MVP bc he made everyone around him better and carried his team to championships. Meek doesn't make everyone better and hasnt' (I bet won't) carry his team to a championship. Jordan was much more than just a scorer. A better comparison might have been Gilbert Arenas- scores a ton but wait- doesn't win awards.

Let's ask some of Jordan's teammates if he made them better, especially early in his career. I think they'd say something different, and even MJ would acknowledge that was a trade that he acquired after years of it not being the case.

And, compare Jodie to Gilbert Arenas, I'd be ecstatic if that's the kind of career he has... afterall, Gilbert didn't win a championsip or anything, but sure led Arizona to the national title game in 2001.

And, this idea that Meeks' isn't making any better is silly, since Patterson says Jodie's shooting this season has kept some extra defenders off of him at various times. But, at the end of the day, I want Jodie to shoot, shoot, and shoot some more on offence... when you've got the SEC's best scorer since Chris Jackson, that's usually what you want. (I'd figure you'd understand that with Dawid Huertas... maybe not though).

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 03:46 PM
That's why Jordan didn't win an MVP until 5 years into his career. Again you can try to spin it however you want. Look at who Gilbert Arenas had on that team. 5 guys averaged double digits. Michael Wright, Loren Woods, Richard Jefferson and Jason Gardner. Give me a break.

Oh and the last time an SEC guy averaged over 25 ppg was 1992 and Joe Harvell did NOT win the POY.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 03:50 PM
You can spin things too.... like I said, Double Zero had Zona in the title game, so your idea of him not "being a winner on the highest level" was shoved back down your throat, regardless of who his cast was. He won, and it's a compliment that you'd compare Mr. Meeks to him.

And, what about the rest of the history of people scoring 25 points and winning POY? The fact that you gotta go back 17,18 seasons is reason enough to explain away your idea of looking at the past 10 POY and scoring leaders, since none of them had 25 which was my point to begin with.

Meeks' 26.4 ppg in SEC games is astonishing. Astonishing enough that nobody else, except for Calathes will top that this year (and the reason Calathes can is because of his triple double this year and the potential for more). And, Downey playing for USC isn't gonna help quite frankly IMO.

BTW, seems to be that you're comparing making teammates better being MVP? Why did Magic wait so long for his first MVP award in 1987? Did he not make his teammates better, wise guy?

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 03:53 PM
Devan Downey...for once he plays for the better team than the UK guy - and that was always the excuse as to why Kelly/Downey didn't win POY before...

That's a bad argument though, because a UK player didn't/hasn't won since the Kelley/Downey years.

And, I will clarify this. The first post in this thread was asking about who is the SEC POY right now... Railroad said it's Meeks, and he even put Tyler Smith ahead of Downey. LOL, flip flopper.

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 03:57 PM
You can spin things too.... like I said, Double Zero had Zona in the title game, so your idea of him not "being a winner on the highest level" was shoved back down your throat, regardless of who his cast was. He won, and it's a compliment that you'd compare Mr. Meeks to him.

And, what about the rest of the history of people scoring 25 points and winning POY? The fact that you gotta go back 17,18 seasons is reason enough to explain away your idea of looking at the past 10 POY and scoring leaders, since none of them had 25 which was my point to begin with.

Meeks' 26.4 ppg in SEC games is astonishing. Astonishing enough that nobody else, except for Calathes will top that this year (and the reason Calathes can is because of his triple double this year and the potential for more). And, Downey playing for USC isn't gonna help quite frankly IMO.

1. I never said Arenas wasn't a winner- I said he didn't make his teammates better and never carried his team to a championship (not championship game). You have yet to prove me wrong. Meeks being like Arenas wouldn't be a bad thing at all as both are very good players- but not necessarily MVP/POY.
2. You didn't say check all of history. You said who was the last. I did exactly what you asked me to. You're fault you didn't look into it first.
3. Meeks is a fabulous scorer. I'll make a sign bet with you right now. Meeks will not finish the year averaging over 25 ppg (in conference games or for the season). The only reason he is now is bc of that one 54 point game. Yes it counts but he would only be at around 21 if not.

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 03:59 PM
That's a bad argument though, because a UK player didn't/hasn't won since the Kelley/Downey years.

And, I will clarify this. The first post in this thread was asking about who is the SEC POY right now... Railroad said it's Meeks, and he even put Tyler Smith ahead of Downey. LOL, flip flopper.



Because unlike you, I have the ability to reason and then adjust my opinion based on reason.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 04:03 PM
Plenty of "winners" have "never won a championship." Not many people made their teams better than John Stockton, chief, but he never won a championship. It's clear what your implication was about Arenas, and it's purely false on the college level, because he did get to the title game, which makes him a winner... he won his NCAA Regional if nothing else.

And, no, Arenas isn't POY, especially since he's injured half the time... but this year, Meeks is SEC POY at this juncture, because of his production.

SO, Meeks would be around 21 ppg without the 54 point game? You still want to take out the 54 point game, which is THE reason he is the SEC POY favorite right now, but let's take what you said and analyze it: Jodie's other SEC scores have been 21, 22, 31, 27, 24, 28, and 15... in other words only one game below you're threshhold of 21. that's an average of 24 actually, which is still 3 and half points above Downey's average in SEC games without taking out his best game.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 04:04 PM
Because unlike you, I have the ability to reason and then adjust my opinion based on reason.

That's typically how people are. Start throwing the insults when they have nothing to debate... I'm surprised it took you that long to get to this point.

So, go ahead and adjust your opinion about what Meeks' average would be without the 54 pointer.

So, as you'd say, stop believing your own smoke.

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 04:07 PM
So you're saying 1 game makes him POY? Gotcha.
I never said Arenas wasn't a winner. Just said he was a scorer and nothing else. That's didn't win him awards. You're comment about John Stockton is just my point. Think about it. I rarely say this, but

You've been owned, KT. Give it up. If you think Meeks is POY- that's cool.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 04:09 PM
So you're saying 1 game makes him POY? Gotcha.
I never said Arenas wasn't a winner. Just said he was a scorer and nothing else. That's didn't win him awards. You're comment about John Stockton is just my point. Think about it. I rarely say this, but

You've been owned, KT. Give it up. If you think Meeks is POY- that's cool.

Read what I said and not what you're wanting to see.

Meeks' 1 game is what set him on another level. But, Meeks' scoring has been tremendous all season long, so what you're saying is really inconsequential in that regard.

And, you've owned nothing. You're the one that picked Meeks yourself. Meeks is the pick by most people, so yeah it is pretty cool to have our first POY since Keith Bogans in '03.

You'd done nothing to suggest Meeks doesn't deserve to be POY, and if anything you're the one that's been called out on your crap, acting like Meeks' average is 4 or 5 points lower without the 54 point game. You were pwned.

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 04:10 PM
Plenty of "winners" have "never won a championship." Not many people made their teams better than John Stockton, chief, but he never won a championship. It's clear what your implication was about Arenas, and it's purely false on the college level, because he did get to the title game, which makes him a winner... he won his NCAA Regional if nothing else.

And, no, Arenas isn't POY, especially since he's injured half the time... but this year, Meeks is SEC POY at this juncture, because of his production.

SO, Meeks would be around 21 ppg without the 54 point game? You still want to take out the 54 point game, which is THE reason he is the SEC POY favorite right now, but let's take what you said and analyze it: Jodie's other SEC scores have been 21, 22, 31, 27, 24, 28, and 15... in other words only one game below you're threshhold of 21. that's an average of 24 actually, which is still 3 and half points above Downey's average in SEC games without taking out his best game.


You said 26.4 ppg average in SEC play 26.4*8games = 211.2 points- hmmm
211.2 - 54 (UT game) = 157.2 points hmmm 157.2 / 7 games = 22.5 ppg

Learn some math. I said 21 based on UK playing 7 SEC games- not 8.

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 04:12 PM
I'll be more than happy to start a poll and let the posters decide who won the argument. I never insulted you by the way. If I did, it was not intentional. I think my reputation stands alone on that issue.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 04:13 PM
Actually, you're the one that needs to learn math.

Jodie's points: 21 + 22 + 31 + 27 + 24 + 28 + 15 = 168

divide that by 7 and you get the 24 I said earlier.

FOr what it's worth, please don't try to act like I don't know math... I've got a math degree, and am a high school math teacher. Owned.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 04:15 PM
I'll be more than happy to start a poll and let the posters decide who won the argument. I never insulted you by the way. If I did, it was not intentional. I think my reputation stands alone on that issue.

Start a poll BTW. It doesn't matter to me, who won or didn't win the argument. I've been here for 4 years, have won and lost plenty of arguments and have lived to tell about it. Starting a poll about that would be skewed anyway, considering some people don't like me. LOL

But, looking thru what those same posters think, they by majority think it's Meeks. That's what matters to me. Thanks SECFanatics.

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 04:15 PM
Downey is averaging 20.4 ppg. Jodie is averaging 25.1 ppg. Both teams are like 5-3 I believe... so both teams are on pace for 5 or 6 wins in the second half of the SEC season, but Jodie is clearly in the advantageous position when it comes to scoring pace.

In SEC play Downey's scoring has been at a 20.3 clip (putting him even behind Marcus Thornton). Jodie in SEC play is at 26.4 ppg. So, if scoring and points are your determining factor, Marcus Thornton should be favored over Downey as well, seeing as how they've only lost once and he's scoring 1.3 more ppg.

So, "current scoring pace" does nothing to pump Downey over Meeks at all.... whether you're looking at the whole season or just SEC play.

Ultimately, Jodie Meeks got national acclaim by putting 54 on somebody... 54. In order to esclipse that Downey is gonna have to be even more special, considering he doesn't even get as much exposure as Jodie to begin with.

Something doesn't add up math teacher. My calculations were based solely on the average YOU gave.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 04:21 PM
Jodie is averaging 26.4 ppg in SEC play. That's what SECsports.com says. Maybe that's wrong, but that's what I'm using.

We could take away Downey's 33 point game (or I think he might have h ad 37 in one), and that would diminish his average, too. But, at the end of the day, I'm not sure it matters though, because the 54 point game does count, and that's that.

We're just going in circles now, and I'll let what SECF has said this thread, the media types, and better yet, Jodie's game do the talking the rest of the way through.

statesboroblues
02-05-2009, 04:24 PM
I'll be more than happy to start a poll and let the posters decide who won the argument. I never insulted you by the way. If I did, it was not intentional. I think my reputation stands alone on that issue.

Believe me...he does not care about polls. I give Ktubby credit though, he keeps it lively. Though, he has almost single handedly changed my view of Kentucky basketball.

"Eat a Peach"

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 04:25 PM
His conference totals are 21, 54, 22, 31, 27, 21, 20, and 15. for 26.4 ppg
without the 54 he goes from 26.4 to 22.4.

The SEC has had several scoring leaders over the last decade average around 22 ppg.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 04:30 PM
he has almost single handedly changed my view of Kentucky basketball.

"Eat a Peach"

I'm not that important of a person, but I'm glad I've got that kind of "power" on your thoughts of UK basketball... I guess.

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 04:31 PM
His conference totals are 21, 54, 22, 31, 27, 21, 20, and 15. for 26.4 ppg
without the 54 he goes from 26.4 to 22.4.

The SEC has had several scoring leaders over the last decade average around 22 ppg.

That's true about past scoring leaders being around 22 ppg... Jodie Meeks is at 26.4 though as you say.

RailroadGin
02-05-2009, 04:32 PM
You willing to take my sig bet, KT?

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 04:38 PM
What's your sig bet? That Jodie won't average 25 points in the SEC, seeing as how he's already at 26.4? I'm not a betting person, it serves me no purpose but you can go ahead and say I believe Jodie will average 25 ppg, and if I'm wrong feel free to put that in your sig. Won't be the first time I'm wrong... and it won't be the last time I'm right either.

statesboroblues
02-05-2009, 04:43 PM
I'm not that important of a person, but I'm glad I've got that kind of "power" on your thoughts of UK basketball... I guess.

I am the worlds worst for not using:sarcasm:...for that I apologize.

"Eat a Peach"

kentubbybasketball
02-05-2009, 04:46 PM
Apology accepted (although I'm not begging for it like Florida football), but anyway, what's your thoughts of UK basketball. It is what it is, isn't it?

AlBGator
02-06-2009, 06:32 AM
If Jodie Meeks continues to play like he has in these last three kentucky losses, he's not even all-league, much less POY. What? you say! Isn't he averaging almost 19 points per game in those three losses in a row. I doubt that you could find, in all of college basketball, any player who played 107 minutes with only 4 rebounds, 3 assists and 1 steal in that amount of time. Just as an accident you ought to be able to beat those numbers.

UA37
02-06-2009, 07:34 AM
Jimmy D. has Thorton and Meeks as CoSEC POY right now

statesboroblues
02-06-2009, 08:40 AM
Apology accepted (although I'm not begging for it like Florida football), but anyway, what's your thoughts of UK basketball. It is what it is, isn't it?

I think they should be a top 5 year in and year out...and they should not settle for less. Short and sweet...

"Eat a Peach"

JRS
02-06-2009, 11:06 AM
That's exactly right, but if you think scoring isn't the "king stat" in all this you're naive and need to brush up on your history desperately. As for assists, if I wanted to go that route... what's Nick Calathes, chopped liver? Calathes would get the award under the scenario obviously. Jodie is a scorer as you say... that's what UK needs him to do. We don't need him to facilitate offense the way Downey does, so in that sense it's futile to compare games.

As for defense. Darrin Horn himself has criticized Downey for his defense. The only problem Meeks has on defense is that he gambles too much, but I don't expect him to steal the ball as much as Downey does. Downey's man usually has the ball more than Meeks' man typically will. But, in other defensive stats, Meeks is clearly a better rebounder and I'd say he's obviously a better shotblocker due to size, since you wanna get technical.

And, in terms of "true players." There's a reason Jodie is in everybody's All-American list and is in mock draft first rounds this year. Downey is in neither as it stands now.

To me that's like saying Gary Payton is better than Michael Jordan, since GP was considered perhaps a better defender, had more assists, and probably more steals. Only a fool would suggest that in comparing those two.

Lmao at this quote. Downey is not getting all the NBA attention because of his size, not his ability. I can almost guarantee you that if he was 6'2-6'4 he would be a higher draft pick than Meeks. As for a "true player," if you consider a true player to be just a scorer, then good for you, but most don't interpret a true player to be just a scorer. But whatever, you have your opinion and I have mine.

kentubbybasketball
02-06-2009, 11:32 AM
Jimmy D. has Thorton and Meeks as CoSEC POY right now

I saw that also. Case proven. But, he did say Downey was the most impactful, and said USC was picked last as the reason why? Who picked them last?

kentubbybasketball
02-06-2009, 11:35 AM
Lmao at this quote. Downey is not getting all the NBA attention because of his size, not his ability. I can almost guarantee you that if he was 6'2-6'4 he would be a higher draft pick than Meeks. As for a "true player," if you consider a true player to be just a scorer, then good for you, but most don't interpret a true player to be just a scorer. But whatever, you have your opinion and I have mine.

Of course, and it's because of his size that he's got as many steals also IMO. Size does have a huge thing to do with it, and since Jodie is what 6 inches taller, comparisons shouldn't be drawn too much (that's a point I made yesterday, hoss).

But, anyway, it seems like you agree that Jodie is on NBA mock drafts, and Downey isn't. So, regardless of what excuse you try to conjure up... it's still fact. Thanks for admitting it.

And, you're right, we both have opinions... and just because you have one doesn't mean I'm gonna stop sharing mine.

statesboroblues
02-06-2009, 11:36 AM
...I doubt that you could find, in all of college basketball, any player who played 107 minutes with only 4 rebounds, 3 assists and 1 steal in that amount of time. Just as an accident you ought to be able to beat those numbers.

Ouch, are those really Meeks' #'s. Damn, no getting around those...

"Eat a Peach"

kentubbybasketball
02-06-2009, 11:37 AM
I think they should be a top 5 year in and year out...and they should not settle for less. Short and sweet...

"Eat a Peach"

It's just impossible for anybody to expect to be top 5 year in and year out right now. Even UCLA with back to back to back final fours in struggling to stay in the top 15. It's the nature of the beast.

Having Derrick Jasper may've helped a lot this year in that regard, but I'm not crying over those losses... it happens. UK is bound for the top 5 soon.

statesboroblues
02-06-2009, 01:23 PM
It's just impossible for anybody to expect to be top 5 year in and year out right now. Even UCLA with back to back to back final fours in struggling to stay in the top 15. It's the nature of the beast.

Having Derrick Jasper may've helped a lot this year in that regard, but I'm not crying over those losses... it happens. UK is bound for the top 5 soon.

I agree Ktubby, Maybe I should rephrase that...I think they should be doing just as good as say UNC or any other team in the country year in and year out. And for a while now...they have not come close.
Funny you should mention UCLA...Most UK fans would kill to have a top 15 team again and that is without back to back final fours.

"Eat a Peach"

kentubbybasketball
02-06-2009, 01:30 PM
states, that's a bit unfair of you to say. Just this decade UCLA had a 13 win season, which got Lavin fired. That's a losing season. UNC had a 8-20 year in 2002 I believe. Everybody has gone thru lulls. This is cyclical. UK hasn't seen the lowest of lows that UCLA and UNC experienced just this decade, so that doesn't give me pause, it gives me excitement for what UK can be soon. The one thing UCLA, UNC, and UK have in common is historically they don't stay down long.

So, yeah, UK fans would love to have a top 15 team, I think anybody outside the top 15 would (rather it's UK, VMI, Gardner Webb or whatever). But, at the same time UCLA fans want more than that, and so do UK fans. It's being a victim of your own success. It's great being a UK fan because of it though.

kentubbybasketball
02-06-2009, 01:38 PM
I think they should be a top 5 year in and year out...and they should not settle for less. Short and sweet...

"Eat a Peach"

If this is your thought on UK (and for the record I agree completely that the top 5 is where UK belongs), how have I changed your thoughts on the program like you said yesterday? I agree with the assessment.

IMO, with as fluid as the top 5 the last few seasons, UK is only a PG away from that kind of season next year. Afterall, we only are guaranteed to lose Jared Carter from this team.

statesboroblues
02-06-2009, 01:57 PM
states, that's a bit unfair of you to say. Just this decade UCLA had a 13 win season, which got Lavin fired. That's a losing season. UNC had a 8-20 year in 2002 I believe. Everybody has gone thru lulls. This is cyclical. UK hasn't seen the lowest of lows that UCLA and UNC experienced just this decade, so that doesn't give me pause, it gives me excitement for what UK can be soon. The one thing UCLA, UNC, and UK have in common is historically they don't stay down long.

So, yeah, UK fans would love to have a top 15 team, I think anybody outside the top 15 would (rather it's UK, VMI, Gardner Webb or whatever). But, at the same time UCLA fans want more than that, and so do UK fans. It's being a victim of your own success. It's great being a UK fan because of it though.

Ktubby, I am sorry for believing that your team should be one of if not the top program in the country. It goes in cycles and I agree but when was the last time UK made it to the final four are even made it close...way to long for a program like Kentucky.It may give you excitement but you also have to be worried in my opinon since those schools have reached the lows but have surpassed you since. As for as not staying down long...I would think UK fans would call this cycle an eternity, maybe not though.

"Eat a Peach"

kentubbybasketball
02-06-2009, 02:05 PM
Ktubby, I am sorry for believing that your team should be one of if not the top program in the country. It goes in cycles and I agree but when was the last time UK made it to the final four are even made it close...way to long for a program like Kentucky.It may give you excitement but you also have to be worried in my opinon since those schools have reached the lows but have surpassed you since. As for as not staying down long...I would think UK fans would call this cycle an eternity, maybe not though.

"Eat a Peach"

What's the apology for? I'm glad you think UK should be elite. I do too, but when I say it, people get all uncomfortable, so don't come apologizing to me about what should be obvious.

The drought for UK has been 11 seasons, assuming we don't make it this year. The drought for final fours for other top programs, I'd say is just about the same, but when it comes down to it, final fours isn't all the makes a program elite. As far as when was the last time UK was close: 2005, when we lost in double overtime in the Elite 8 (that still stings to this day).

UNC's struggles lasted for about 4 years and so did UCLA's. It's not like this "drought" for UK has been as long or worse than that of other elite programs. Other elite programs have had losing seasons lately (not Kansas or Kentucky). So, sure, those other teams have passed UK, but considering we're higher on the ladder than both UNC and UCLA when Roy and Howland turned them around, I'm confident UK will rise to the top just like those programs.

It has been a long time BTW. You're talking to a UK fan afterall, but I'm able to keep things in perspective as well. UK was getting by in a mediocre league quite frankly, and that allowed us to sweep some things under the rug. But, now that Florida has risen to the occassion (and maybe UT), UK is being challenged in its own league, something that only happened during Nolan Richardson's heyday. This is what UK needed. For so long domination was almost effortless, it's not the case anymore. I think rise of Florida and Tennessee to elite status is gonna push UK if we want to be at that level again. It doesn't happen overnight though.

statesboroblues
02-06-2009, 02:05 PM
If this is your thought on UK (and for the record I agree completely that the top 5 is where UK belongs), how have I changed your thoughts on the program like you said yesterday? I agree with the assessment.

IMO, with as fluid as the top 5 the last few seasons, UK is only a PG away from that kind of season next year. Afterall, we only are guaranteed to lose Jared Carter from this team.


You have not changed them one bit...it was a joke. I tend to forget that the computer does not let other people know my tone...

That is the thing Ktubby...IMO "only" and "ifs" should not be used by Kentucky.

"Eat a Peach"

kentubbybasketball
02-06-2009, 02:08 PM
states, UK isn't always gonna win the national title every year... we're not even gonna win 20 games every year. As great as UK has been, I think we've earned the right the struggle some, as crazy as that sounds. You act like just because UK is perhaps the greatest program of alltime, we're not supposed to struggle a time or two. UK has been lower than this before.

Any team that's not where they want to be will use the word "only" or the word "if." Case in point, this year IF UCLA had more experience in the post, maybe they'd win the national championship. That's not an insult to UCLA, that's how it is likely.

kentubbybasketball
02-06-2009, 02:17 PM
states, check your PM box.

kentubbybasketball
02-06-2009, 02:24 PM
I think I'm pretty much done with this thread other than to say I look forward to Jodie getting not only the SEC Player of the Year hardware, but the SEC championship to boot.

I've really enjoyed this thread, and more than anything the debate/conversation with states on if UK or any elite program is immune to struggle. I hope to continue that debate in a different thread soon.

OffThePorch
02-06-2009, 02:26 PM
something stinks...

statesboroblues
02-06-2009, 03:12 PM
something stinks...

Besides your ability to comprehend that effort has more to do with what you do without the basketball in hand than it does when you have it...I have no clue as to what you could be talking about.;)

"Eat a Peach"

JRS
02-06-2009, 03:30 PM
Of course, and it's because of his size that he's got as many steals also IMO. Size does have a huge thing to do with it, and since Jodie is what 6 inches taller, comparisons shouldn't be drawn too much (that's a point I made yesterday, hoss).

But, anyway, it seems like you agree that Jodie is on NBA mock drafts, and Downey isn't. So, regardless of what excuse you try to conjure up... it's still fact. Thanks for admitting it.

And, you're right, we both have opinions... and just because you have one doesn't mean I'm gonna stop sharing mine.

First thing, don't call me hoss. I'm more than happy to get into that kind of "arguement" with you on the trash talk forum, but as of now keep the smugness down to a minimum. It's his quickness and anticipation that gets him all those steals, not because he is 5'9. Also, the ability to fill up passing lanes with length will get a ton of steals.

As for the Meeks NBA thing, just because he has the desired measurables, doesn't make him a better player. Look at Maurice Jones-Drew, has none of the desired measurables by NFL Scouts except speed but he is probably one of the most dynamic running backs in the league.

Finally, I wasn't telling you to stop sharing your opinion. I was basically saying that you have yours and I have mine and it is obvious that niether one of us is going to change our opinion.

kentubbybasketball
02-06-2009, 03:42 PM
I think I'm pretty much done with this thread...

^ I had a response at first, but I decided to delete it, because I'm just spinning my wheels discussing this with you further.

gmecockrugby
02-06-2009, 04:33 PM
well we can all agree on the fact that they are all great players and POY will be a hard decision that can be argued as a wrong choice either way. I will say meeks is most likely in the lead but his past few games as definitly deminished his hype. I think he needs to step up his game down the stretch to help kentucky reach the big dance. If he does that he'll most likely win. However, if downey keeps going off like he has been its going to be hard to not give it to the guy. If heart was a stat I'd def say he'd be leading that category but its not and sadly points are seen as the most important. that being said Meeks has got some work left to do or downey/calathes/smith could slip right in there

kentubbybasketball
02-07-2009, 09:33 AM
Let's not forget that Downey has some work to do in order for his team to make the NCAAT too. Granted, making the NCAAT means different things to the program Downey plays in compared to Jodie's, but at the end of the day, they're going after the same award, so we gotta use the same criteria.

Everybody has unfinished business, but I gotta say it seems like other people have to play up to the level Jodie established earlier this season in order for somebody else to win it, and it seems like Calathes is closer than anybody with a better record than Downey's team and a triple double to boot.

OffThePorch
02-07-2009, 09:57 AM
Besides your ability to comprehend that effort has more to do with what you do without the basketball in hand than it does when you have it...I have no clue as to what you could be talking about.;)

nope... still smell it.

too early for me to call the SEC POY. i gave a list of 6 or so that it could be.

gmecockrugby
02-07-2009, 10:31 AM
fair enough....i agree with you on that but if downey continues playing the way he is and leads the gamecocks to the tourney. and meeks continues his high level of play and leads the cats to the NIT (which I dont think will happen bc I think the cats will step up when needed) .... we could agree that someone besides meeks deserves it right?

kentubbybasketball
02-07-2009, 10:36 AM
fair enough....i agree with you on that but if downey continues playing the way he is and leads the gamecocks to the tourney. and meeks continues his high level of play and leads the cats to the NIT (which I dont think will happen bc I think the cats will step up when needed) .... we could agree that someone besides meeks deserves it right?

I don't understand your line of thinking first of all.

Downey keeps up his high level, yet USC makes the NCAAT. Meeks keeps up his high level, and UK doesn't? Point blank, both are difference makers, and if they are allowed to play at a high level both teams should make the NCAAT.

SO, I can't answer your question, because I don't agree with the premise.

Here's the thing: Meeks is the favorite right now... just about everybody agrees with that. If he plays at a high level here on out, I don't think anybody will or can catch him, considering he's already the favorite. People have to play "well above Meeks" in order to esclipse him at this point IMO. I really believe that.

gmecockrugby
02-07-2009, 06:33 PM
yea i just re read that and it didnt make any sense...what i meant is that I think that even though downey might not drop 54 if he plays as good as he has been and carolina makes the tourney he should have the nod over meeks playing maybe a little better but not leading his team to a berth if that makes any sense? it might not but I think there are other things that should come into play besides a few stats.

cock15
02-07-2009, 09:54 PM
1)DOWNEY < Leads the nation in PPG for a gaurd under 6ft tall( that includes a list of: AJ Abrams,Johnny Flynn etc...)

2) Meeks
3) Calathes

msudawg4life
02-07-2009, 11:16 PM
because scoring is all that matters.......

gmecockrugby
02-08-2009, 01:34 AM
you prove another point no ppg shouldnt be all that matters even more why downey should win it over meeks

kentubbybasketball
02-09-2009, 11:32 AM
you prove another point no ppg shouldnt be all that matters even more why downey should win it over meeks

It isn't all that matters, but that's usually the best indicator of who will win the award... usually your points is what's mentioned in the press release after you've won the award.

As we speak, Jodie is averaging 25 ppg, and his team's record is just as good as USC's in conference... I think that puts the balance in Jodie's favor. If UK doesn't make the NCAAT maybe Jodie shouldn't win, because a POY should lead their team somewhere, but if UK is in the NCAAT, Jodie should be pencilled in as the winner IMO. Let's acknowledge that Downey is playing, but so too is Jodie. This has been Jodie's worst three game stretch of the season, and he's still got ALl-SEC First Team numbers.

statesboroblues
02-09-2009, 11:36 AM
nope... still smell it.

too early for me to call the SEC POY. i gave a list of 6 or so that it could be.

:topic:...you smell it because by your reasoning our defensive effort was the same in the first and second half of the Arkansas game...

"Eat a Peach"

gmecockrugby
02-11-2009, 01:41 AM
well as an observer I think meeks in the end proved he was ready to lead his team a lot more than calathes....I was highly impressed with some of the shots meeks was making...... Congrats uk and look forward to seeing you in columbia.....

OffThePorch
02-11-2009, 09:20 AM
One mans thoughts http://www.nwanews.com/adg/Sports/252002/

GatorMan32
02-11-2009, 09:37 AM
i would vote Downey

kentubbybasketball
02-11-2009, 11:32 AM
Wow... So now, Downey makes a buzzer shot over Meeks to beat UK. Meeks makes a shot basically at the buzzer over Calathes. I gotta say with Calathes blanking those first two FTs at the end, and Meeks making that three over Calathes, I gotta say this further establishes Jodie as the favorite.

A lot is made about UK not doing well in the SEC, but right now we're in first place in the East.

bleedorange1983
02-11-2009, 11:50 AM
Meeks, and no one else is really even close.

kentubbybasketball
02-11-2009, 11:53 AM
Meeks, and no one else is really even close.

I'm in agreement. That was Calathes' night... he outplayed Meeks quite frankly, but Meeks stole the spotlight from him. Meeks was probably in the lead already, but after this game, he distances himself from my #2, Nick Calathes.

Dawg
02-11-2009, 05:47 PM
One mans thoughts http://www.nwanews.com/adg/Sports/252002/

Ridiculous not to even mention Varnado for First or Second team.

I also think Bost should be edging Fortson for FOY.

OffThePorch
02-11-2009, 06:23 PM
Ridiculous not to even mention Varnado for First or Second team. I also think Bost should be edging Fortson for FOY.

everyone has an opinion. i wouldnt trade Bost for anyone. i hope V comes back for another season. he needs to work on his offensive game & strength/stamina.

GatorMan32
02-11-2009, 06:41 PM
FWIW I give Downey the edge because its a bigger upset if his team wins the East and he has them in position to do so. Meeks is a great player. He isn't the only one in the league. I did not give Downey the nod for his shot over Meeks. I did it based on where the Gamecocks are v where I thought they would be and how much of a factor he is in that.

GatorMan32
02-11-2009, 06:42 PM
FWIW I think 1st team should be Downey, Calathes, Meeks, Thornton and Vernardo.

ConwayGamecock
02-11-2009, 07:40 PM
I'd say that the tide is turning in Downey's favor.....a POY should be a player that leads his team to victory more often then defeat.....while Meeks did come through against UF (thanks to some assistance from Calathes), all he did was prevent UK from suffering it's first 3-game losing streak in Rupp....ever(??), while Downey was leading USC to last-second wins against UF and UK, and winning 4 consecutive conference games in over 10 years. Heck, we're talking about all the scoring that Meeks is producing, but the last 4 games he hasn't even averaged 20+ points a game.

The UF game may help his cause, but I see it now:

1)Downey
2)Thornton/Meeks
3)Calathes/Varnado


:)

kentubbybasketball
02-12-2009, 01:36 PM
FWIW I give Downey the edge because its a bigger upset if his team wins the East and he has them in position to do so. Meeks is a great player. He isn't the only one in the league. I did not give Downey the nod for his shot over Meeks. I did it based on where the Gamecocks are v where I thought they would be and how much of a factor he is in that.

At this point nobody has won the East, so I don't think that can be used as part of the discussion right now, becuase USC may be in the hunt for the title, but UK is too. So, that is a wash IMO.

And, that's all fine and dandy, but like you're "you didn't give a nod here, you didn't give a nod here." I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about me.

kentubbybasketball
02-12-2009, 01:39 PM
I'd say that the tide is turning in Downey's favor.....a POY should be a player that leads his team to victory more often then defeat.....while Meeks did come through against UF (thanks to some assistance from Calathes), all he did was prevent UK from suffering it's first 3-game losing streak in Rupp....ever(??), while Downey was leading USC to last-second wins against UF and UK, and winning 4 consecutive conference games in over 10 years. Heck, we're talking about all the scoring that Meeks is producing, but the last 4 games he hasn't even averaged 20+ points a game.

The UF game may help his cause, but I see it now:

1)Downey
2)Thornton/Meeks
3)Calathes/Varnado


:)


Whether, Meeks has averaged 20 ppg the last four games is inconsequential, since he's averaged 25 for the entire season, if we want to talk about scoring.

And, let's not talk about 3 game losing streaks and stuff, because if that's the case, Downey likely covered that at both Cincy and USC. ANd, Meeks' shot won the game... all Calathes could have done was tied the game, so there was no assistance from Calathes in UK winning that game. He merely didn't tie the game, but it was Jodie's shot that won the game.

OffThePorch
02-12-2009, 01:40 PM
The UF game may help his cause, but I see it now:
1)Downey
2)Thornton/Meeks
3)Calathes/Varnado

Id have those plus a couple more still in the mix at this point.

GatorMan32
02-12-2009, 02:52 PM
At this point nobody has won the East, so I don't think that can be used as part of the discussion right now, becuase USC may be in the hunt for the title, but UK is too. So, that is a wash IMO.

And, that's all fine and dandy, but like you're "you didn't give a nod here, you didn't give a nod here." I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about me.

I was projecting out the season.

Did not want you to think I was knocking Meeks. That kid is very good and the shot he hit was nuts.

tazz603c
02-12-2009, 04:36 PM
Hey don't forget about Tasmin Mitchell. Did ya'll see that 40+ pts 10+ reb performance last night. That was great. Oh wait I forgot, we all had to watch Tenn spank UGA. At least i got to read about it. :(

kentubbybasketball
02-12-2009, 04:46 PM
I was projecting out the season.

Did not want you to think I was knocking Meeks. That kid is very good and the shot he hit was nuts.

That's fine that you're projecting out the season, but I believe that's what I was doing too.

OffThePorch
02-12-2009, 05:29 PM
Hey don't forget about Tasmin Mitchell. Did ya'll see that 40+ pts 10+ reb performance last night. That was great. Oh wait I forgot, we all had to watch Tenn spank UGA. At least i got to read about it. :(

you can believe i wont forget him. :sad2:

ConwayGamecock
02-12-2009, 08:51 PM
Whether, Meeks has averaged 20 ppg the last four games is inconsequential, since he's averaged 25 for the entire season, if we want to talk about scoring.

And, let's not talk about 3 game losing streaks and stuff, because if that's the case, Downey likely covered that at both Cincy and USC. ANd, Meeks' shot won the game... all Calathes could have done was tied the game, so there was no assistance from Calathes in UK winning that game. He merely didn't tie the game, but it was Jodie's shot that won the game.

It's only my opinion......nothing to get defensive about. Lord knows, you've expressed your opinion about 28 times in this thread. I understand your position.

South Carolina has not played Cincinnati and SoCal this season, and has not even had a 2-game losing streak this season....perhaps you've confused USC with another SEC team, which may explain your error in judgment as to the best SECPOY candidate. You should review your data. :)

I think how the contending players finish the season - especially in conference play - plays as big a role, if not the biggest, in determining the conference's POY. It is again just my opinion, but it may not matter to the individuals who vote on who the winner is, how well a player played in the early part of the season, against OOC opponents. How the player plays in the stretch, with conference standing and postseason opportunity in the balance, would matter more to me if I was such an individual.

Again, UK beating UF and avoiding an unprecedented conference slide for the program certainly helps more than the alternative. But thus far, one can make the argument that Meeks has played a role to place UK in the dubious position it was in to begin with. As others here have said, Meek's primary role on this team is not to assist, steal, rebound, etc.: it is to score. During this recent slide, Meeks has not scored. That would be a blight on his resume for this season's POY honors, IMO......


:)

kentubbybasketball
02-13-2009, 02:24 PM
It's only my opinion......nothing to get defensive about. Lord knows, you've expressed your opinion about 28 times in this thread. I understand your position.

South Carolina has not played Cincinnati and SoCal this season, and has not even had a 2-game losing streak this season....perhaps you've confused USC with another SEC team, which may explain your error in judgment as to the best SECPOY candidate. You should review your data. :)

I think how the contending players finish the season - especially in conference play - plays as big a role, if not the biggest, in determining the conference's POY. It is again just my opinion, but it may not matter to the individuals who vote on who the winner is, how well a player played in the early part of the season, against OOC opponents. How the player plays in the stretch, with conference standing and postseason opportunity in the balance, would matter more to me if I was such an individual.

Again, UK beating UF and avoiding an unprecedented conference slide for the program certainly helps more than the alternative. But thus far, one can make the argument that Meeks has played a role to place UK in the dubious position it was in to begin with. As others here have said, Meek's primary role on this team is not to assist, steal, rebound, etc.: it is to score. During this recent slide, Meeks has not scored. That would be a blight on his resume for this season's POY honors, IMO......


:)


Can you comprehend anything. When I said Cincy and USC I was talking about Cincinnati and South Carolina, places where Downey has had his own losing streaks throughout his career.

And, if how the players finish conference play is an indicator, I still say Meeks is the man, since he's got the best record in the East too and is averaging still more points in conference play.

And, blaming Jodie for Kentucky's predicament is STUPID.... pure stupidity. Jodie is the reason we don't have a losing streak right now. You are the only person on SECF that would try to spin that this way.

ConwayGamecock
02-13-2009, 03:54 PM
Can you comprehend anything. When I said Cincy and USC I was talking about Cincinnati and South Carolina, places where Downey has had his own losing streaks throughout his career.

And, if how the players finish conference play is an indicator, I still say Meeks is the man, since he's got the best record in the East too and is averaging still more points in conference play.

And, blaming Jodie for Kentucky's predicament is STUPID.... pure stupidity. Jodie is the reason we don't have a losing streak right now. You are the only person on SECF that would try to spin that this way.

Oh, I comprehended perfectly.....I knew exactly what you were hinting at....but I already understood that anything having to do with Downey, Fredrick, Meeks, or any other player on a SEC team that took place prior to this season has very little (read: nothing at all) to do with this season's SEC POY award. I was playing coy with you, kentubby......I was dangling you from the string, over the fire, watching you squirm.....

:)

UK does lead by the slight technicality that they haven't played enough of the top East teams yet, but unless I missed some new SEC by-law no one is going to just cancel those remaining games, and UK has a much tougher remaining schedule than USC does. The last 5 games include home battles with UT and LSU, and road hazards at USC and UF, and when I say that Meeks is undeserving of the SEC POY, I'm taking into account that he wont traverse those games without hitting some potholes. Either way, both UK and USC are tied right now, but USC got here on the upward trend, while UK got here on a down-slide. The voters notice these things.....

And when you consider Meeks for POY, you consider how they lead their teams to victories, or how they let their teams down to defeat.....that's ALWAYS played a major role in determination of these awards. Just goes with the game.....sorry......


:cheers:

kentubbybasketball
02-13-2009, 04:02 PM
Yep, last I checked, Meeks led his team to victories on national TV over our two greatest SEC rivals at the moment (@ UT and vs UF). Like you say, I hope the voters don't overlook that.

And, I know UK's schedule is backloaded... I made that point a month ago FWIW, but as USC showed, it's possible tough games in this league. As you say though, UK is in the lead right along with the other 3, so regardless of what excuses you derive, you really can't use record to dismiss Jodie's claim on the award.

Looking at our losses, except for @ Ole Miss and vs South Carolina, I really don't think you can blaim UK for any of the losses we've had. I think we went into the other games with a pretty good chance to lose.

OffThePorch
02-13-2009, 04:06 PM
It's only my opinion......nothing to get defensive about. Lord knows, you've expressed your opinion about 28 times in this thread. I understand your position.

:rotf:

ConwayGamecock
02-13-2009, 04:15 PM
Yep, last I checked, Meeks led his team to victories on national TV over our two greatest SEC rivals at the moment (@ UT and vs UF). Like you say, I hope the voters don't overlook that.

And, I know UK's schedule is backloaded... I made that point a month ago FWIW, but as USC showed, it's possible tough games in this league. As you say though, UK is in the lead right along with the other 3, so regardless of what excuses you derive, you really can't use record to dismiss Jodie's claim on the award.

Looking at our losses, except for @ Ole Miss and vs South Carolina, I really don't think you can blaim UK for any of the losses we've had. I think we went into the other games with a pretty good chance to lose.

And Downey led USC to victories over UF and @ UK. And you mean, as Downey and USC has shown, it's possible to win tough games in this league....as Meeks and UK has shown, it's possible to lose them. I can use many things, such as all the other facets of Downey's game he excells in to help his team win games, as opposed to Meeks being a one-tool role player for his team, who hasn't been doing even THAT very well for his team lately.

And I'm sorry, but UK simply MUST take blame for their losses this season....regardless of whether they didn't play to their expected level, or if their opponents played better, the losing team loses because it didn't play well enough to win. UK wasn't the better team on the floor in the games that UK lost. No one nor nothing else to blame there.......

kentubbybasketball
02-13-2009, 04:29 PM
Considering both guys have lost 3 games, we could go round and round about how both guys have shown you can win and you can lose.

This one-tool role player you're talking about is a very good defender, per his coach and everybody that has seen him play a lot this year, so while we all know Jodie excels offensively, he's a very good defender too. Otherwise, I don't know how our defensive numbers, as a team, have been among the top of the nation all season long, since he plays what 34, 35 mpg. What's funny is that Jodie has stayed at #4 and 5 in the nation in scoring, even though you foolishly want to say he's not even scoring well lately.

And, of course, UK takes the blame for its losses... I think I've made that point. You instead want to blame Jodie for those losses, and maybe USC is a one-player team, but UK certainly isn't.

ConwayGamecock
02-13-2009, 05:15 PM
Considering both guys have lost 3 games, we could go round and round about how both guys have shown you can win and you can lose.

This one-tool role player you're talking about is a very good defender, per his coach and everybody that has seen him play a lot this year, so while we all know Jodie excels offensively, he's a very good defender too. Otherwise, I don't know how our defensive numbers, as a team, have been among the top of the nation all season long, since he plays what 34, 35 mpg. What's funny is that Jodie has stayed at #4 and 5 in the nation in scoring, even though you foolishly want to say he's not even scoring well lately.

And, of course, UK takes the blame for its losses... I think I've made that point. You instead want to blame Jodie for those losses, and maybe USC is a one-player team, but UK certainly isn't.

When I say one-tool player, I mean in terms of what Meeks brings to the table in POY discussions.......there are a lot of good defenders in the SEC: few of them are in the running for the POY. Downey is not a good defender...he is a great defender. He is also a better assist-man than Meeks. In short, Downey has a much more rounded game than Meeks does, he is helping USC to the same success that Meeks has helped UK (unless you want to split hairs). IMO, it's an slight advantage in Downey's favor, but an advantage just the same.

Meeks was #3 in the nation in scoring as of Jan. 25th, before UK went on a 1-3 run. Meeks was averaging 26.1 ppg then......he's averaged under 20 ppg in the last 4 games: again, when UK went 1-3.....you can't say that UK could do without Meek's scoring in those games......Downey only scored 10 points against UGA, but he contributed in other ways, and USC won. Still, Downey scored 84 total points in USC's last 4 games, which they went 3-1 in. Meeks scored 79 his last 4 games. Meeks also had 9 rebs, 4 asst, and 1 stl. Downey had 8 rebs, 19 asst, and 9 stls. You see where I'm headed with this.....


:)

kentubbybasketball
02-13-2009, 05:26 PM
When I say one-tool player, I mean in terms of what Meeks brings to the table in POY discussions.......there are a lot of good defenders in the SEC: few of them are in the running for the POY.

Becuase none of them are averaging 25 ppg. That's easy.


Downey is not a good defender...he is a great defender. He is also a better assist-man than Meeks. In short, Downey has a much more rounded game than Meeks does, he is helping USC to the same success that Meeks has helped UK (unless you want to split hairs). IMO, it's an slight advantage in Downey's favor, but an advantage just the same.

I guess we could say Jodie is a better rebounder too then, huh, if we want to split hairs on who's better in the stats. USC beat Kentucky, but IMO, with both teams having 3 losses in SEC play, I say it's a wash at best. The only difference, and I assume this is part of your point is that a 3 loss team in the SEC is great news for USC... not so much for UK.


Meeks was #3 in the nation in scoring as of Jan. 25th, before UK went on a 1-3 run. Meeks was averaging 26.1 ppg then......he's averaged under 20 ppg in the last 4 games: again, when UK went 1-3.....you can't say that UK could do without Meek's scoring in those games......Downey only scored 10 points against UGA, but he contributed in other ways, and USC won. Still, Downey scored 84 total points in USC's last 4 games, which they went 3-1 in. Meeks scored 79 his last 4 games. Meeks also had 9 rebs, 4 asst, and 1 stl. Downey had 8 rebs, 19 asst, and 9 stls. You see where I'm headed with this.....

And, Jodie is still 5th in the nation in scoring, I don't see where Meeks' "offensive drought" is any worse than the trend in the nation, we've seen in the last 4 games based on him still being in the top 5. And, UK certainly could not have done without Meeks' scoring, that's as clear as day.

BTW, too bad for Downey this is player of the year and not player of the last two weeks. If it were player of the last two weeks, he still wouldn't win it with Calathes being there, but at least he'd finish higher than he should be right in talking about player of the year candidates. FWIW, Meeks has a ten game stretch where he was scoring over 31 points a game, if we want to pick and choose our spots.

ConwayGamecock
02-13-2009, 05:53 PM
Becuase none of them are averaging 25 ppg. That's easy.

Downey is averaging 20 ppg...no small potatoes. He's 2nd in the SEC, right behind Meeks....


I guess we could say Jodie is a better rebounder too then, huh, if we want to split hairs on who's better in the stats. USC beat Kentucky, but IMO, with both teams having 3 losses in SEC play, I say it's a wash at best. The only difference, and I assume this is part of your point is that a 3 loss team in the SEC is great news for USC... not so much for UK.

Haha...that's funny.......3.5 rpg? Less than a rebound per game more than Downey, for a player that's over half a foot taller? A shooting guard over a PG? You crack me up, kentubby.... :raz:

The stats that Downey is clearly superior to Meeks in are far more pertinent in the race for the POY than an extra rebound, assist or steal, or two. You constantly refer to Meeks being in the top 10 nationally in scoring. Downey is in the top 30. He's also in the nation's top 10 in steals. He's fourth in the SEC in assists.

But I do agree with one thing: a 3 loss UK team in the SEC is great news for USC, and not so much for UK. A 4 loss UK team, even moreso...... ;)



And, Jodie is still 5th in the nation in scoring, I don't see where Meeks' "offensive drought" is any worse than the trend in the nation, we've seen in the last 4 games based on him still being in the top 5. And, UK certainly could not have done without Meeks' scoring, that's as clear as day.

Meek's offensive drought - coming along during a 1-3 conference run - doesn't help Meeks' campaign...all I'm sayin'.


BTW, too bad for Downey this is player of the year and not player of the last two weeks. If it were player of the last two weeks, he still wouldn't win it with Calathes being there, but at least he'd finish higher than he should be right in talking about player of the year candidates. FWIW, Meeks has a ten game stretch where he was scoring over 31 points a game, if we want to pick and choose our spots.

seems so long ago, now.....the present, when we're talking about SEC play, and when conference standing and postseason seedings are on the line, will mean much more to the voters for the SEC POY than what a player did earlier in the season, against OOC opponents. How each player finished the season will count, as well. We'll see what happens......


:think:

kentubbybasketball
02-16-2009, 01:31 PM
After his 45 pointer this weekend, which gained national attention (the only attention that the SEC seems to be getting nationally), I'd once again say Meeks increased his stranglehold on the SEC POY discussion.

OffThePorch
02-16-2009, 02:58 PM
after this past weekend my vote right now would be to Meeks. UK without Meeks would be bad.