Will Cal finally get the respect he deserves? [Archive] - SEC Sports Forum | SEC Basketball | SEC Football

PDA

View Full Version : Will Cal finally get the respect he deserves?



GDawg88
03-08-2015, 04:50 PM
I've never kept it a secret that I'm a huge John Calipari fan. After Coach Fox, Cal is my favorite coach in D1 basketball. I've always said I can understand why he's such a great recruiter, because whenever I hear him talk basketball I want to suit up and go play for him.

Which brings me to a point that's always irritated me. Why is the fact that Cal is the best recruiter in the sport held against him as if it's somehow a negative? Isn't the bottom line winning? I don't know if he's the greatest X's and O's mastermind out there (though he's clearly very good), but it doesn't really matter when his ability to sign great athletes is so superior to everyone else's. Would you rather go 18-13 and overachieve with mediocre athletes or go 31-0 with an historically great roster? I could argue that recruiting skill is the most important attribute in a coach.

It's time to put to bed the unfair and, frankly, ridiculous criticisms of Cal.

kentubbybasketball
03-08-2015, 05:08 PM
Nobody has ever won without dudes. Forget players: dudes. Cal has it figured out that the coach with the best players typically wins. Xs and Os wise Cal is underrated, because of how his teams miss free throws and especially the 2008 title game where they didn't foul Kansas up three. Buy look at how he coached up UMASS from nothing. Cal can coach.

The best thing about Cal tho is he cares about his players. That's the only way he keeps getting the best players yearly. He takes care of his guys. They would run through brick for him. (He also takes care of his assistants. Guys just don't leave his staff. I mean we have Kenny Payne with a million dollar contract. That's football coordinator money).

Cal is the kind of coach that anybody would want running their program. His guys get their degrees, even the one and done guys. They rarely get in legal trouble. Cal's about players first. When he said the NBA Draft was the biggest night in UK history people were mad, but Cal's point was clear: get players to that draft stage and it will constantly feed your program for the future, because future generations take note.

Plus, how does Cal get so many talented guts to mesh. He is the best motivator out there. To have the pulse of that many NBA future guys is a skill. It is credit to Cal.

I love how Cal dictates his own narrative. Media ask him questions and often he talks off the wall, but there's always an ulterior motive.

People that complain about Xs and Os just wanna have something to say. I could defend his ability there if needed. I mean just look at the horn set we run that Cal ran in the NBA. That's Xs and Os. Cal is very Phil Jackson - like in that if things are going bad he wants his guys to figure out but he can draw up plays and coach with anybody.

kentubbybasketball
03-08-2015, 05:09 PM
Watch the hall of fame will pass him over yet let Bo Ryan in.

Bama_Man
03-08-2015, 05:27 PM
Cal's the best recruiter, and he obviously has coaching acumen. But, Kentucky should think of him as a guy that ness worships Kentucky and wants to run his program like Duke. where he relies some on guys who stay four years and really make it a point to build up Duke as the end all be all, and that kids should want to come and stay four years and wont bring in a whole new starting five every year.

But Cal is about getting these guys, giving them a great NBA training experience for a year or two, then go make their money. Kentucky gives him the best resources, great facility, great fan base, all the money he could need to dole out on his staff, because they know he brings in the best players, gets them to play together, and he wins most of the time. But the old system, in which a player stayed and became a money making machine for a school and that school was what you played for, not the NBA, is not what happens at Kentucky. Not to say the kids dont love their time at Kentucky or dont come back and get their degrees, I am sure they do. Cal does too. But he runs his program differently, and is capable enough as a coach to constantly bring in new players and have them preform at a high level.

I dont think Cal is always a wonderful X's and O's, basketball management coach but he is obviously of the higher percentage but he wins big games. I think some coaches are better coaches in that strategy, but at times Cal can even win against teams like that because he has such a high caliber of player and is good enough to know how to use them.

He will always win at a much higher percentage than other programs, he will lose a game or two even with his elite talent, but he will be a player in most Final Fours from here on out because basketball allows players at a younger age be able to compete with the best of them. Anthony Davis, anyone? Poll the NBA execs, if they were building a team from scratch, the overwhelming vote would be for Anthony Davis. Cal is good as identifying talent and them improving their games, following their natural developmental line, and getting them to where NBA teams want them, now.

Bama_Man
03-08-2015, 05:31 PM
Watch the hall of fame will pass him over yet let Bo Ryan in.

hasn't Ryan been coaching longer at the collegiate level?

I can understand him behind before Cal in those terms, because of his experience, but Ryan's big accomplishments are greatly outnumbered by Calapari

kentubbybasketball
03-08-2015, 05:45 PM
Cliff Ellis has been coaching longer too. That has nothing to do this. Longevity is good only to a point.

And, the way Cal does things is the new way. Coach K has changed his ways to match Cal. Talk about one and done: Austin Rivers, Jabari Parker, Jahlil Okafor. Bill Self does it too. Cal is just ahead of the pack. Our team GPA is off the charts. Our kids are getting a great college experience.



And if Cal isn't good at Xs and Os why does he have a winning record over Pitino when Pitino always had better talent Early on? Cal owns Bill Self who has comparable talent also.

Bama_Man
03-08-2015, 06:32 PM
Cliff Ellis has been coaching longer too. That has nothing to do this. Longevity is good only to a point.

And, the way Cal does things is the new way. Coach K has changed his ways to match Cal. Talk about one and done: Austin Rivers, Jabari Parker, Jahlil Okafor. Bill Self does it too. Cal is just ahead of the pack. Our team GPA is off the charts. Our kids are getting a great college experience.



And if Cal isn't good at Xs and Os why does he have a winning record over Pitino when Pitino always had better talent Early on? Cal owns Bill Self who has comparable talent also.

Are you not willing to admit that at times, Cal has gotten outcoached by some coaches in certain times? I never said he was bad at it at all, just that he is not generally perceived as the absolute best in late game situations and managing a game. A lot of people thought Kevin Ollie out-coached Cal in the title game last year, but not having WCS did play a huge role in it.

Nothing in my post was meant as derogatory, and yes Cal started the trend that coaches like K., Self, Roy Williams, etc.. have tried to emulate. Some of their players do stick around at a higher rate than UK, but those schools still go after the top 1% one and done players.

GDawg88
03-08-2015, 06:39 PM
Are you not willing to admit that at times, Cal has gotten outcoached by some coaches in certain times?
Is there any coach we can say has never been outcoached, though? I realize it's a different sport, but Saban was pretty conclusively outcoached by Malzahn and Stoops at the end of the 2013 season and Meyer in the playoffs last season. I'd still take Saban over any coach in America. Sometimes the other guy just has a great game plan and it's hard to adjust.

kentubbybasketball
03-08-2015, 06:41 PM
*Of course Cal has been outcoached. John Wooden was outcoached by Digger Phelps several times. It happens to everybody. I'm not sure what you're trying to get accomplished by even asking that question. I am not trying to give off an impression that I think Cal is above being outcoached. We were outcoached by Robert Morris in the NIT most memorably. Interesting you bring up Ollie last year, yet talk about how Cal has great players... Ollie had the best player in that game.

*Maybe you didn't read my post, but did I not say part of the bum rap that Cal gets is from the 2008 title game where he didn't foul up three before Mario Chalmers sent that game into OT. Yet, you come back and suggest Cal isn't at his best in late game situations. I think I just admitted that first.

*Cal has 8 guys that returned last year. We only had two guys leave last year. People that have seniors lose more than that. People only look at the surface and don't investigate deeper. Whether guys leave early or not shouldn't matter one way or the other. Are they in good academic standing is what should matter. If a guy is leaving college to get a $10 million job, I'm sure some pre-med students would do the same if it were an option. Why that's a negative is beyond me. Izzo alluded to the same thing earlier this past week.

Bama_Man
03-08-2015, 06:43 PM
Is there any coach we can say has never been outcoached, though? I realize it's a different sport, but Saban was pretty conclusively outcoached by Malzahn and Stoops at the end of the 2013 season and Meyer in the playoffs last season. I'd still take Saban over any coach in America. Sometimes the other guy just has a great game-plan and it's hard to adjust.

That was my point. All great coaches get out coached at some point, although the detractors will say that Cal's lack of success in the NBA and having one of two teams with great talent go to the NIT or not very far, its not a sentiment I agree with. Just pointing out what the detractors will say.

Bama_Man
03-08-2015, 06:45 PM
*Of course Cal has been outcoached. John Wooden was outcoached by Digger Phelps several times. It happens to everybody. I'm not sure what you're trying to get accomplished by even asking that question. I am not trying to give off an impression that I think Cal is above being outcoached. We were outcoached by Robert Morris in the NIT most memorably. Interesting you bring up Ollie last year, yet talk about how Cal has great players... Ollie had the best player in that game.

*Maybe you didn't read my post, but did I not say part of the bum rap that Cal gets is from the 2008 title game where he didn't foul up three before Mario Chalmers sent that game into OT. Yet, you come back and suggest Cal isn't at his best in late game situations. I think I just admitted that first.

*Cal has 8 guys that returned last year. We only had two guys leave last year. People that have seniors lose more than that. People only look at the surface and don't investigate deeper. Whether guys leave early or not shouldn't matter one way or the other. Are they in good academic standing is what should matter. If a guy is leaving college to get a $10 million job, I'm sure some pre-med students would do the same if it were an option. Why that's a negative is beyond me. Izzo alluded to the same thing earlier this past week.

I agree Napier was the best on the court that night, but overall UK had more talent.

I dont understand being somewhat defensive, I am applauding Cal for what he does and how he does it

kentubbybasketball
03-08-2015, 06:49 PM
Perhaps, I am defensive, but you have a habit (and I think often times purposedly) try to poke at me with comments you make.

I really don't wish to argue about UConn, because it's a memory I'd rather forget. However, your argument is like saying the Utah Jazz had more overall talent than the Bulls.. yet the Bulls having the singular best player always made the biggest difference. Same with UConn.

XPS
03-08-2015, 07:23 PM
Cal will never get the credit he deserves outside of the bbn. It's always he had all the talent etc, a lot people don't know Cal only had one draft pick (I think)at Umass and should be considered the greatest rebuilding job ever in my opinion. Can you name another coach who could deal with the turnover each year Cal does and have the results he has?

kentubbybasketball
03-08-2015, 08:10 PM
Some people get credit their system around to fit the players on a yearly basis (looking at your Coach K), but Cal does it with different main guys yearly. It's actually quite incredible. Aso, consider how bad Memphis was before Cal came. They were decimated with NCAA trouble,. He gets in there and does phenomenally.

I like Tubby Smith most as a coach and person, but Cal is right there with him. A mixture of those two would be the perfect coach IMO. Fortunately, for UK, we've been blessed to have 16 combined years with the two.

kentubbybasketball
03-08-2015, 09:01 PM
BTW, Cal was outcoached earlier this weeks by Mark Fox, and I admitted it in the game thread after the game. I have no qualms with calling out our coaches when necessary.

MissKitty
03-08-2015, 11:01 PM
Cal is a players first coach. He brings these young fellas in develops their talent. Often times building them into players they always wanted to be.

Then he helps them make the best decision they can.

That is why they want to play for him. They know he's going to support them when it's time to go.

I know for a fact that Coach K has given guys hell for leaving early. It didn't fit his plan and they caught hell for it.
It is amazing how Cal starts over every year with all new guys and stays at the top of College Basketball.

To me that's some pretty good x&os. At times youngsters don't always follow directions in detail which causes blown plays. And yes he's does make mistakes.

I loved it yesterday in his press conference when he told the reporters You're not gonna steal my joy. Not with these kids. You're not gonna do it"

SCgamecock2988
03-09-2015, 08:10 AM
Cal will never get the credit he deserves outside of the bbn. It's always he had all the talent etc, a lot people don't know Cal only had one draft pick (I think)at Umass and should be considered the greatest rebuilding job ever in my opinion. Can you name another coach who could deal with the turnover each year Cal does and have the results he has?

Well when you get the best players on one team ever year it's probably not as hard as you're making it sound.

kentubbybasketball
03-09-2015, 08:22 AM
It's not as easy as it sounds to mesh all that together either. Most coaches want about 3 stars not 10. Dealing with egos, chemistry, and hangers-on people isn't a walk in the park always.

XPS
03-09-2015, 08:58 AM
Well when you get the best players on one team ever year it's probably not as hard as you're making it sound.

According to rankings UK failed the last few years to land the #1 player in the country. The point I'm making Cal is doing great with or without the very best each year (UMass)and like I said earlier Cal is the only coach in my opinion that has the ability to handle that many egos and the youth year in and year out.

SCgamecock2988
03-09-2015, 12:08 PM
I'd give props to Cal if he could turn a program like South Carolina around. Then again who wouldn't?

VandyChuck
03-09-2015, 12:54 PM
According to rankings UK failed the last few years to land the #1 player in the country. The point I'm making Cal is doing great with or without the very best each year (UMass)and like I said earlier Cal is the only coach in my opinion that has the ability to handle that many egos and the youth year in and year out.

Cal is the only coach that gets the oppurtunity to handle that many egos and youth. How would anybody know how other coaches would handle it.

I really did think this was a troll topic at first...

Storm
03-09-2015, 01:42 PM
This is probably a topic that should be readdressed at the end of the season. It would be easier to say he manages all the egos and talent if has multiple championships. As of now, he's only won the one, and that was a great coaching job in getting all those kids to come together and play as a TEAM. That's my take on it. The guy has 9 McD All Americans on his roster, he's suppose to be 31-0 right now. It's what hardware he has at the end of the season that will garner respect to the outside observer.......IMO

XPS
03-09-2015, 02:40 PM
This is probably a topic that should be readdressed at the end of the season. It would be easier to say he manages all the egos and talent if has multiple championships. As of now, he's only won the one, and that was a great coaching job in getting all those kids to come together and play as a TEAM. That's my take on it. The guy has 9 McD All Americans on his roster, he's suppose to be 31-0 right now. It's what hardware he has at the end of the season that will garner respect to the outside observer.......IMO

Duke also has 9 big macs, is there season a failure because they are not 31-0?

SkyAntoine
03-09-2015, 03:05 PM
Short answer...no.
Everyone loves hating Cal. Imagine if this Syracuse mess or UNC's papergate was UK and Calipari. It would be completely different to the NCAA, in the media and in everyone's eyes.

I've always said the best coaching I've ever seen was that one coach we had in 1996. The way he kept everyone happy was unbelievable. And, he had big personalities like Antoine Walker.
If this year holds out the way I think it will, then Cal has eclipsed the other guy's job. Yet, he won't get the credit that even Bob Knight got with his 1976 team. He may win NCOY, but actual credit due will not happen.

Now in Kentucky...we'll erect a mountain and carve his face into it.

XPS
03-09-2015, 03:11 PM
Cal is the only coach that gets the oppurtunity to handle that many egos and youth. How would anybody know how other coaches would handle it.

I really did think this was a troll topic at first...

Only a troll topic if you started it regarding UK.

kentubbybasketball
03-09-2015, 03:27 PM
I'd give props to Cal if he could turn a program like South Carolina around. Then again who wouldn't?

Cal did that at UMass, far worse than USC. South Carolina has all the advantages in the world. Fertile recruiting, good facility. No reason that program should be down constantly.

Cal also won at Memphis. People forget how low their programs where before Cal came. Look at what Cal did at Kentucky. We were pretty bad under Gillispie and he turned us around in one year.

kentubbybasketball
03-09-2015, 03:29 PM
This is probably a topic that should be readdressed at the end of the season. It would be easier to say he manages all the egos and talent if has multiple championships. As of now, he's only won the one, and that was a great coaching job in getting all those kids to come together and play as a TEAM. That's my take on it. The guy has 9 McD All Americans on his roster, he's suppose to be 31-0 right now. It's what hardware he has at the end of the season that will garner respect to the outside observer.......IMO

Storm, really? You know as well as I do that a championship isn't the only mark of a great coach. Plenty of coaches who are great never win one, let alone multiple titles. If Cal doesn't win the title this year, it still doesn't detract from what has been a great year. As a matter of fact Cal is going to be Coach of the Year for that reason.

The best talent doesn't always win... how quickly you forget 2013. Cal had the #1 class that year and we went to the NIT. Fitting the puzzle pieces together isn't a guarantee, Storm.

Also consider this Storm. Cal's team was ranked #1 to begin the season. As you say it should have been that way. For Cal to keep us there the entire year is incredible... think about that. Everybody is gunning after you, and you don't allow anybody else to be #1 this year. That says something about Cal's coaching fortitude.

Storm
03-09-2015, 05:11 PM
That's why I said it should be addressed at the end of the season. The run this year would be more impressive than the first championship run, simply because it's been wire to wire.

The guy amasses talent wherever he goes. He's a solid x's and o's coach. Like Sky said, the only people who don't recognize his success and give him respect are the ones who simply don't like the guy.

Storm
03-09-2015, 05:12 PM
side note, when was the last undefeated mens team in NCAA bball? Did Duke do it in the 90's? Or does it go back farther than that.

Dawg in Dallas
03-09-2015, 05:36 PM
Duke ended the last attempt at an undefeated season by UNLV in 1991. I think the last undefeated team was in the 1970's, maybe Indiana or UCLA (in the early 1970's)

Djshockley3
03-09-2015, 07:33 PM
Indiana.

kentubbybasketball
03-09-2015, 08:08 PM
That's why I said it should be addressed at the end of the season. The run this year would be more impressive than the first championship run, simply because it's been wire to wire.

The guy amasses talent wherever he goes. He's a solid x's and o's coach. Like Sky said, the only people who don't recognize his success and give him respect are the ones who simply don't like the guy.

See, here;s the bone of contention Storm. I don't think you did this on purpose or that your intentions were anything negative. But, when people say Cal amasses talent as you just did. It is a backhanded compliment. That's the very point GD88 is making with this thread IMO. I mean, at what level does Cal really amass talent. At Ketnucky sure. But, can you name 2 people on any of those UMass teams besides Marcus Camby. What about Memphis besides DRose.

MKfromPA
03-09-2015, 08:36 PM
Indiana.

Correct. 1976 Indiana was the most recent undefeated regular season, prior to 2014-2015 Kentucky. The others are:

1973 UCLA (30-0)
1972 UCLA (30-0)
1967 UCLA (30-0)
1964 UCLA (30-0)
1957 UNC (32-0)
1956 San Francisco (29-0)
1939 Long Island (24-0)

MKfromPA
03-09-2015, 09:01 PM
See, here;s the bone of contention Storm. I don't think you did this on purpose or that your intentions were anything negative. But, when people say Cal amasses talent as you just did. It is a backhanded compliment. That's the very point GD88 is making with this thread IMO. I mean, at what level does Cal really amass talent. At Ketnucky sure. But, can you name 2 people on any of those UMass teams besides Marcus Camby. What about Memphis besides DRose.

Really good question, KT. As a matter of fact I can only name two off the top of my head - Tyreke Evans and Chris Douglas-Roberts.

kentubbybasketball
03-09-2015, 09:38 PM
Right, but people act like Cal always has recruited the Kevin Durants and Blake Griffins.

MKfromPA
03-09-2015, 09:46 PM
Right, but people act like Cal always has recruited the Kevin Durants and Blake Griffins.

Right, and I'd have to disagree. Not when he was at Memphis, at least. Maybe now at Kentucky he is reloading every year, but that is different. He is coaching a premier program that draws premier talent. As I have said before, Cal's ability of a coach is phenomenal. He led a mid-major in Memphis to an NCAA record 38 wins, and 38-2 record. I know the wins were vacated, but it's still that Cal can coach. So I am right there with you that he has not always gotten the best players. However, his strong ability to coach made the difference then, and still does now even though he is getting the best players at UK.

Storm
03-09-2015, 10:45 PM
i meant he's been amassing talent at UK.......One could argue he did more with less at UMASS and Memphis

xAuBuRn
03-09-2015, 11:00 PM
What Cal has done whether you like him or hate him is remarkable. He is the best coach in the 3 major sports. Saban a close second bama fans don't go full retard on me please.

kentubbybasketball
03-10-2015, 06:42 AM
Wow. That's a comparison we hear a lot: Cal vs Saban.

Storm
03-10-2015, 07:52 AM
It's hard not to put Meyer in the category after what he did last season, and has done the last decade. Took win a NC with a third string QB is pretty remarkable...............barf

kentubbybasketball
03-10-2015, 08:41 AM
Doesn't Saban and Meyer get all the talent too (especially Saban).. hmmm, I see a correlation here.

NCMISSSTFAN
03-10-2015, 10:47 AM
I respect Cal as a coach, I don't think he's just a great recruiter, you have to be able to get these guys coached up and Cal does a good job there. That being said, I'll take a great recruiting class over coaching any day. You can't coach pure talent and Cal does a great job of getting the best talent in America to come to UK.

Bama_Man
03-10-2015, 03:20 PM
See, here;s the bone of contention Storm. I don't think you did this on purpose or that your intentions were anything negative. But, when people say Cal amasses talent as you just did. It is a backhanded compliment. That's the very point GD88 is making with this thread IMO. I mean, at what level does Cal really amass talent. At Ketnucky sure. But, can you name 2 people on any of those UMass teams besides Marcus Camby. What about Memphis besides DRose.

UMass sure but not Memphis. At Memphis, he had future NBA players like Chris-Douglas Roberts (who was an All-American), Joey Dorsey, and I believe Dozier or Taggart or Kemp played in the league. He had more talent at Memphis than D-Rose.

And if I remember correctly, UMass had four players average double digit points when Camby was there with Cal. So its not like it was Cal and a bunch of NAIA guys. But UMass was in bad shape before Cal got there and he had them in a Final Four

But you have to at least see Storm's point; the best coaches are judged by championships. No one gives Saban much credit when he wins the SEC, he was supposed to. He only gets true credit for national titles. Same as Coach K (more titles than Cal), Roy Williams (more than Cal), Pitino (more titles than Cal), Jim Calhoun (more titles than Cal), Billy Donovan (who ATT has more titles than Cal), etc...

But in terms of being elite coach, Cal is def. elite and deserves recognition. Only four active coaches have more titles than Cal, so I put Cal in the class with Bill Self, Tom Izzo, etc...

I'm sorry, but I just cant say Cal is as good as a guy like Coach K, who has proven over a long period of time he can win in different era's, or Jim Calhoun who won multiple titles. Even Roy Williams has more national titles than Calapari and has sustained success for years. Pitino has two national titles, more than Cal, and has sustained success over long periods of time.

But he is on the next tier, right below them.

kentubbybasketball
03-10-2015, 03:44 PM
I respect Cal as a coach, I don't think he's just a great recruiter, you have to be able to get these guys coached up and Cal does a good job there. That being said, I'll take a great recruiting class over coaching any day. You can't coach pure talent and Cal does a great job of getting the best talent in America to come to UK.

In a nutshell, I agree. You win with players. I don't care if you can coach the best box and 1 defense in the world. If you don't have talented players, it won't get you very far.

kentubbybasketball
03-10-2015, 03:46 PM
UMass sure but not Memphis. At Memphis, he had future NBA players like Chris-Douglas Roberts (who was an All-American), Joey Dorsey, and I believe Dozier or Taggart or Kemp played in the league. He had more talent at Memphis than D-Rose.

And if I remember correctly, UMass had four players average double digit points when Camby was there with Cal. So its not like it was Cal and a bunch of NAIA guys. But UMass was in bad shape before Cal got there and he had them in a Final Four

But you have to at least see Storm's point; the best coaches are judged by championships. No one gives Saban much credit when he wins the SEC, he was supposed to. He only gets true credit for national titles. Same as Coach K (more titles than Cal), Roy Williams (more than Cal), Pitino (more titles than Cal), Jim Calhoun (more titles than Cal), Billy Donovan (who ATT has more titles than Cal), etc...

But in terms of being elite coach, Cal is def. elite and deserves recognition. Only four active coaches have more titles than Cal, so I put Cal in the class with Bill Self, Tom Izzo, etc...

I'm sorry, but I just cant say Cal is as good as a guy like Coach K, who has proven over a long period of time he can win in different era's, or Jim Calhoun who won multiple titles. Even Roy Williams has more national titles than Calapari and has sustained success for years. Pitino has two national titles, more than Cal, and has sustained success over long periods of time.

But he is on the next tier, right below them.

Cool. I didn't read your post after the first sentence. I don't care to argue with you about if Cal had players at Memphis or UMass. I respect your right to have an opinion, but if that's the crux of your whole argument, I'm not wasting my time with those semantics.

pcgraffy
03-10-2015, 03:48 PM
I've never kept it a secret that I'm a huge John Calipari fan. After Coach Fox, Cal is my favorite coach in D1 basketball. I've always said I can understand why he's such a great recruiter, because whenever I hear him talk basketball I want to suit up and go play for him.

Which brings me to a point that's always irritated me. Why is the fact that Cal is the best recruiter in the sport held against him as if it's somehow a negative? Isn't the bottom line winning? I don't know if he's the greatest X's and O's mastermind out there (though he's clearly very good), but it doesn't really matter when his ability to sign great athletes is so superior to everyone else's. Would you rather go 18-13 and overachieve with mediocre athletes or go 31-0 with an historically great roster? I could argue that recruiting skill is the most important attribute in a coach.

It's time to put to bed the unfair and, frankly, ridiculous criticisms of Cal.

He seems to have a hard time securing final four appearances that aren't later vacated. Maybe he's turned over a new leaf at UK. And, yes, I'm sure there is a perfectly reasonable explanation that completely absolves Cal.

kentubbybasketball
03-10-2015, 03:52 PM
He seems to have a hard time securing final four appearances that aren't later vacated. Maybe he's turned over a new leaf at UK. And, yes, I'm sure there is a perfectly reasonable explanation that completely absolves Cal.

Huh? He's got 5 final fours and two of them were vacated. Not sure 2 of 5 is enough to say he's got a "hard time securing final four appearences" that don't become vacated.

As for things that absolve him, who cares to argue all the points about how he's not in any trouble with the NCAA. Just answer me this, would you have played DRose if the NCAA cleared him? If you say, no, you're acting foolish.

MKfromPA
03-10-2015, 04:14 PM
i meant he's been amassing talent at UK.......One could argue he did more with less at UMASS and Memphis

Very much agree with that.

GDawg88
03-10-2015, 04:24 PM
He seems to have a hard time securing final four appearances that aren't later vacated. Maybe he's turned over a new leaf at UK. And, yes, I'm sure there is a perfectly reasonable explanation that completely absolves Cal.
The NCAA is evil and hypocritical so I don't hold that against Cal too much. It's one thing to throw the book at UMass and Memphis. Will they do to the same thing to North Carolina, whose level of academic fraud is staggering by comparison? Even Syracuse got off light considering the breadth of their violations.

To quote the great Jerry Tarkanian: "The NCAA's so mad at North Carolina they're going to put Cleveland State on probation for 10 years."

pcgraffy
03-10-2015, 04:28 PM
Huh? He's got 5 final fours and two of them were vacated. Not sure 2 of 5 is enough to say he's got a "hard time securing final four appearences" that don't become vacated.

As for things that absolve him, who cares to argue all the points about how he's not in any trouble with the NCAA. Just answer me this, would you have played DRose if the NCAA cleared him? If you say, no, you're acting foolish.

Okay, so 40% of his final fours have been vacated. How does that number compare to other coaches with multiple final fours?

Bama_Man
03-10-2015, 05:32 PM
Cool. I didn't read your post after the first sentence. I don't care to argue with you about if Cal had players at Memphis or UMass. I respect your right to have an opinion, but if that's the crux of your whole argument, I'm not wasting my time with those semantics.

Its not, and its completely childish of you to act like that. But the fact that you simply dismiss CDR, Dozier, etc.. shows that you are being selective in your memory at best, or disingenuous at worst.

Go read the rest of my post. Do you believe Cal should be held in the same regard as coaches who have won over long periods of time consistently and have won more than one national title?

kentubbybasketball
03-10-2015, 06:43 PM
Okay, so 40% of his final fours have been vacated. How does that number compare to other coaches with multiple final fours?

So you're assuming everybody is clean because nothings been uncovered... like Duke's 1999 final four should've been.

Show me what Cal did wrong in 1996 and 2008 and I'll leave it alone.

kentubbybasketball
03-10-2015, 06:51 PM
The NCAA is evil and hypocritical so I don't hold that against Cal too much. It's one thing to throw the book at UMass and Memphis. Will they do to the same thing to North Carolina, whose level of academic fraud is staggering by comparison? Even Syracuse got off light considering the breadth of their violations.

To quote the great Jerry Tarkanian: "The NCAA's so mad at North Carolina that they're going to put Cleveland State on probation for 10 years."

Yep. Looking NCAA violations and allowing that to dictate one's opinion requires respecting the NCAA actual ability to enforce their own bogus rules... do that at your own risk.

pcgraffy
03-11-2015, 09:20 AM
So you're assuming everybody is clean because nothings been uncovered... like Duke's 1999 final four should've been.

Show me what Cal did wrong in 1996 and 2008 and I'll leave it alone.

It's not my job to uncover specific violations that other programs may have committed. While I understand, as a UK fan, these uncovered violations are important in your blind support of a coach that has 40% of his final four appearances wiped from the record forever.

I guess you just assume most successful programs are just as dirty as Cal's. I'm not saying I wouldn't do the same thing if I were a UK fan, but as a fan of a different team, it is amusing to sit back and watch it happen.

If Cal had gone to Louisville, I suspect UK fans would view have a slightly different view on his vacated final fours.

VandyChuck
03-11-2015, 11:53 AM
It's not my job to uncover specific violations that other programs may have committed. While I understand, as a UK fan, these uncovered violations are important in your blind support of a coach that has 40% of his final four appearances wiped from the record forever.

I guess you just assume most successful programs are just as dirty as Cal's. I'm not saying I wouldn't do the same thing if I were a UK fan, but as a fan of a different team, it is amusing to sit back and watch it happen.

If Cal had gone to Louisville, I suspect UK fans would view have a slightly different view on his vacated final fours.

A while back a Vandy message board posted an old thread about Calipari from Rupp Rafters from when he was at Memphis. There were hundreds of posts in the thread almost unanimously talking about how dirty Cal is.

pcgraffy
03-11-2015, 12:00 PM
A while back a Vandy message board posted an old thread about Calipari from Rupp Rafters from when he was at Memphis. There were hundreds of posts in the thread almost unanimously talking about how dirty Cal is.

Yeah, and he settled a suit outside court for six figures after leaving Memphis (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7071639/john-calipari-derrick-rose-settle-avoid-memphis-ticket-holder-lawsuit). I assume Cal just enjoys settling lawsuits when he's done nothing wrong?

And UMASS (http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/07/umass-making-big-mistake-with-john-calipari-honor/jpNlS6DG2VJPlyMiNXpX6K/story.html?hootPostID=6ffd0c88ad6bb65d69e28deff324 dc68) is retiring his jersey, for some reason.

Once he left Memphis, all Memphis fans all of a sudden acknowledged that he is dirty.

There's no question that Cal's past is riddled with issues at UMASS and Memphis. At this point, only close family members and UK fans deny that. There's no proof that he's doing anything wrong at UK, but where there is smoke, there's fire.

Bama_Man
03-11-2015, 12:15 PM
Nice ignoring my logical question KT, smooth move.

kentubbybasketball
03-11-2015, 03:46 PM
It's not my job to uncover specific violations that other programs may have committed. While I understand, as a UK fan, these uncovered violations are important in your blind support of a coach that has 40% of his final four appearances wiped from the record forever.

I guess you just assume most successful programs are just as dirty as Cal's. I'm not saying I wouldn't do the same thing if I were a UK fan, but as a fan of a different team, it is amusing to sit back and watch it happen.

If Cal had gone to Louisville, I suspect UK fans would view have a slightly different view on his vacated final fours.

Exactly, and it's also not your job to act like the vacated final fours are a stain on Cal's reputation, since they have nothing to do with Cal. Glad we got that cleared away. Cal is as clean as anybody. Cal has never been caught violating a rule any more than the average coach. That much is fact. It's not subjective, it's fact.

And, I don't care about if Cal went to Louisville. We can think about hypotheticals all day.... if I uncle were a girl, she'd be my aunt for instance.

kentubbybasketball
03-11-2015, 03:53 PM
A while back a Vandy message board posted an old thread about Calipari from Rupp Rafters from when he was at Memphis. There were hundreds of posts in the thread almost unanimously talking about how dirty Cal is.

Chuck, get yourself some business of your own. If you gotta patrol UK message boards on your little Vandy message board, how bored are you?

You mention this one every couple of years btw. We get the point that some UK fans over at Rupp's Rafters didn't like Cal pre-UK. That's fine. They like him now I'm sure. An 83% winning percentage might've changed their minds. Why does it really matter to you?





.. to answer that question, it doesn't.

pcgraffy
03-11-2015, 06:37 PM
Cal is as clean as anybody.

A coach that has had 2 Final Fours vacated is "as clean as anybody". Maybe now I've heard it all.

kentubbybasketball
03-11-2015, 07:14 PM
The NCAA wrote Cal and told him he had no wrongdoing. Sorry it doesn't fit your agenda but you're the one that's all about what the NCAA does. They absolved Cal from everything.

XPS
03-11-2015, 07:23 PM
A coach that has had 2 Final Fours vacated is "as clean as anybody". Maybe now I've heard it all.

Cal is the only dirty coach ever - who cares if these kids are worth millions of Dollars coming out of high school. The only difference between Cal and coach K? UMass is a nobody and the Ncaa was not going to vacate nothing Duke or coach K regarding Corey Maggette. What about Cliff Alexander of Kansas? What's different then Marcus Camby? Bill Self deserves ever game to be vacated while he was playing but it won't happen because Kansas is a somebody.

kentubbybasketball
03-11-2015, 07:30 PM
And, people act like Cal's two final fours being vacated is a big deal. Ummm, Jim Boeheim just had 5 or 6 straight seasons vacated. That doesn't register on his radar though, because those seasons weren't multiple final fours. As if it matters whether it's a final 4 or a second round loss.

VandyChuck
03-11-2015, 08:03 PM
Chuck, get yourself some business of your own. If you gotta patrol UK message boards on your little Vandy message board, how bored are you?

You mention this one every couple of years btw. We get the point that some UK fans over at Rupp's Rafters didn't like Cal pre-UK. That's fine. They like him now I'm sure. An 83% winning percentage might've changed their minds. Why does it really matter to you?





.. to answer that question, it doesn't.

I don't 'patrol' UK message boards. Read it again.

pcgraffy
03-11-2015, 08:21 PM
The NCAA wrote Cal and told him he had no wrongdoing. Sorry it doesn't fit your agenda but you're the one that's all about what the NCAA does. They absolved Cal from everything.

I'm not saying that he does a poor job of covering his tracks. He does a spectacular job of that. Funny how trouble just seems to follow him around. I admire you for mastering the mental gymnastics required to believe all of that is just coincidence.

I assume the letter you are referring to has been published online?

kentubbybasketball
03-11-2015, 08:51 PM
Do your research, sir.

Dawgilicious
03-11-2015, 09:06 PM
You guys gotta remember to some UK fans, if you aren't talking about them they don't want to listen.

Not all, just some......

XPS
03-11-2015, 09:12 PM
You guys gotta remember to some UK fans, if you aren't talking about them they don't want to listen.

Not all, just some......

This thread is about Cal lol

Dawgilicious
03-11-2015, 09:15 PM
This thread is about Cal lol

LOL....I know, sarcasm cant be read in my words unfortnately....U are cool tho

Storm
03-11-2015, 09:28 PM
Fans are always going to turn a blind eye to success. The hate and vitriol for Urban Meyer from osu fans after Florida whipped their ass was hilarious. Thousands of posts dedicated to how dirty and slimy and shady he was. Now those same fans worship the ground he walks on and say he's a saint.

XPS
03-11-2015, 09:30 PM
LOL....I know, sarcasm cant be read in my words unfortnately....U are cool tho

Off topic, how is Gaines????

kentubbybasketball
03-11-2015, 09:30 PM
This thread is about Cal lol

Thanks for reminding him. You'd think that'd be obvious.

kentubbybasketball
03-11-2015, 09:32 PM
Fans are always going to turn a blind eye to success. The hate and vitriol for Urban Meyer from osu fans after Florida whipped their ass was hilarious. Thousands of posts dedicated to how dirty and slimy and shady he was. Now those same fans worship the ground he walks on and say he's a saint.

It's the same with Louisville fans that once couldn't stand Pitino. I guess people expect the UK fans that didn't like Cal to not like the fact that we are the best program in the country by a long shot simply because they didn't like Cal before.

Storm
03-11-2015, 09:35 PM
yeah, I mean, Jim Harbaugh had some not so nice things to say about Michigan when he was passed over for the coaching job when Lloyd Carr retired. A lot of people hoped he would never become coach after what he said, but things change over time. Especially after a lot of losing.

xAuBuRn
03-11-2015, 09:39 PM
Cal is God/ thread.

kentubbybasketball
03-11-2015, 09:40 PM
yeah, I mean, Jim Harbaugh had some not so nice things to say about Michigan when he was passed over for the coaching job when Lloyd Carr retired. A lot of people hoped he would never become coach after what he said, but things change over time. Especially after a lot of losing.
Yep. And, you know how much UNC were mad at Roy for turning them down in 2000 only to love him three years later. Some people just expect UK fans to be different from everybody else... silliness.

kentubbybasketball
03-11-2015, 09:41 PM
Cal is God/ thread.

What a contribution to this thread.

joehogjoe
03-12-2015, 12:56 AM
Hard to argue 31-0

GDawg88
03-12-2015, 10:25 AM
Hard to argue 31-0
Exactly.

"He only wins because he has the best players" is just another way of saying "he wins." It's not Cal's fault he's a better recruiter than everybody else. It's a ridiculous criticism.

At the end of the day, who cares how the sausage is made? 31-0 is 31-0 is 31-0.

GoDores
03-12-2015, 10:38 AM
Exactly.

"He only wins because he has the best players" is just another way of saying "he wins." It's not Cal's fault he's a better recruiter than everybody else. It's a ridiculous criticism.



Maybe I'm putting words into people's mouths, but I think what those who argue against Cal are saying is that Cal's players carry him more than Cal carries his players. I.e. the talent overcomes Cal's shortcomings as a coach. (most notably, in my opinion, his inability to coach against a zone defense)

On a related note: why isn't Eric Spoelstra considered one of the greatest coaches for that run the Heat just went on over the last 4 years?

Storm
03-12-2015, 11:09 AM
If, and that's a big IF, Kentucky gets beat this year, I want to see the school team up with WWE and produce shirts saying they are "The 1 in ** and 1." :lol: Wrestling fans will get that.

Bama_Man
03-12-2015, 12:59 PM
Maybe I'm putting words into people's mouths, but I think what those who argue against Cal are saying is that Cal's players carry him more than Cal carries his players. I.e. the talent overcomes Cal's shortcomings as a coach. (most notably, in my opinion, his inability to coach against a zone defense)

On a related note: why isn't Eric Spoelstra considered one of the greatest coaches for that run the Heat just went on over the last 4 years?

That was my point, seems that only you and I believe that point.

GDawg88
03-12-2015, 02:52 PM
On a related note: why isn't Eric Spoelstra considered one of the greatest coaches for that run the Heat just went on over the last 4 years?
Because recruiting isn't part of an NBA coach's job description. At least not nearly to the extent it is in college.

Besides, when Spoelstra hasn't had LeBron, his record has been pretty mediocre. Cal has won hugely at different schools in different conferences with different players.

The point is this: If you have Calipari, you're an instant contender. You can't say the same thing about Spoelstra.

GoDores
03-12-2015, 03:14 PM
Because recruiting isn't part of an NBA coach's job description. At least not nearly to the extent it is in college.

Besides, when Spoelstra hasn't had LeBron, his record has been pretty mediocre. Cal has won hugely at different schools in different conferences with different players.

The point is this: If you have Calipari, you're an instant contender. You can't say the same thing about Spoelstra.

Fair point, and I'll give Calipari his recruiting credit. That is part of a college coaches job. But Cal has always had NBA players when he's been successful. Even at UMass, his best year was when he had Camby.

You do hear the professionals on ESPN and what not stick up for Cal defending his in game/tactic/X-O coaching. My thought, if it's all there and there's no questions regarding it, why is there a need to defend it?

kentubbybasketball
03-12-2015, 03:31 PM
If, and that's a big IF, Kentucky gets beat this year, I want to see the school team up with WWE and produce shirts saying they are "The 1 in ** and 1." :lol: Wrestling fans will get that.

Haha. I've thought about that already this year. It could be two schools that beat us. The most we could lose this year would be two games.

Speaking of WWE, they did an article recently about UK's unbeaten season. Talk about crossing over entertainment lines. This UK streak has been something. The only thing that I would say would be more impressive than an unbeaten basketball season would be an unbeaten tennis season, because they have no teammates and they play on four different types of surfaces.

kentubbybasketball
03-12-2015, 03:34 PM
Exactly.

"He only wins because he has the best players" is just another way of saying "he wins." It's not Cal's fault he's a better recruiter than everybody else. It's a ridiculous criticism.

At the end of the day, who cares how the sausage is made? 31-0 is 31-0 is 31-0.

Right, it's like if you excel at one part of your job it's a detriment. In what other field is that how we view things?

To people that say how can Cal have 9 McD AAs and then lose in the NIT... when has that ever happened? We didn't have 9 guys that year for one. Two, everybody has bad years. Billy Donovan will probably be under .500 this season himself. It's the nature of the beast. The only coach that hasn't had a bad year would probably be Bill Self.

Cal is the best coach in the country at the moment. One national title, two title games, three final fours, and that's in the last four years. This year he's got the first unbeaten regular season team in a big league in 39 years. What other coach has a resume right there at the moment... the only one you could argue would be Pitino. However, Pitino can't beat Cal in the NCAAT in that same time frame, whether Cal has the higher seed or lower seed.

Then, to say Cal can't coach against a zone is stupid. Every team we've played this year has played zone. To say the only reason we win games against a zone is because the players are carrying him is stupid. Who is coaching these players in practice to beat the zone? The fact of the matter is we lost to West Virginia in 2010 when they played zone. If we're holding that one game against Cal and saying he can't coach against a zone, so be it. The evidence before and since that however suggests Cal has had plenty of success against zone. I mean, he's won over 83% of his games... I think he knows how to beat a zone.

GoDores
03-12-2015, 03:45 PM
Just for shiggles, can I learn learn one thing that Cal does wrong?

Does he leave the toilet seat up? Eat enough greens?

kentubbybasketball
03-12-2015, 03:51 PM
Just for shiggles, can I learn learn one thing that Cal does wrong?

Does he leave the toilet seat up? Eat enough greens?

Funny you should say that. Nobody says Cal is perfect; however, we are 31-0 do you really expect us to have a complaint about our coach. Good grief. Why have such unreasonable expectations on people?

If I had some complaints about Cal they would be the following and I've said this for 6 years so it's nothing new.
-I wish he wouldn't leave starters in until the final 30 seconds. If a game is in hand, let people like Derek Willis who will be important next year get some minutes. Cal has done better with that this year, but in year one, the "mop up" guys never got "mop up" time.

-I wish Cal would recruit for the long term more. Granted, everybody likes #1 recruiting classes, and Cal finally did this with Willis and Dominque Hawkins, but the first few years we basically returned maybe 3 frosh total (Lamb, TJones, and Wiltjer).

-I wish we would post up our point guards more. You can't do it with Tyler Ulis obviously, but John Wall was 6'4 and Andrew Harrison is 6'6 we could really put some opposing point guards in jail if we posted them. However, when your bigs are so good, you don't want to take them out. Wall had Cousins, so it wasn't worth posting Wall if you had Cousins.

-Cal needs to use better language. He's definitely not Kevin Stallings, but Cal one time in 2011 cussed out Terrence Jones so bad at Bama that his own wife Ellen scolded him.

All of this is really splitting hairs. I mean, again, it's either this or Billy Gillispie. You'd think Cal was close to perfect, too.

GoDores
03-12-2015, 04:00 PM
Also, for the record my comment about Cal struggling against zone wasn't based on the WVU game a few years back. I had forgotten about that one honestly. I've seen Stallings switch to zone a lot over the years and give Cal's UK team's trouble. Most notably:

SEC championship March 2012:
"With Kentucky leading 62-55, the Commodores went on a 10-0 run in the final five minutes to seize control and stifled the Wildcats by switching to a zone defense." Linked (http://www.nola.com/ncaa/index.ssf/2012/03/vanderbilt_finds_rare_postseas.html)

I think Cal struggles coaching against a zone defense. Don't see why that's "stupid".

kentubbybasketball
03-12-2015, 04:07 PM
Also, for the record my comment about Cal struggling against zone wasn't based on the WVU game a few years back. I had forgotten about that one honestly. I've seen Stallings switch to zone a lot over the years and give Cal's UK team's trouble. Most notably:

SEC championship March 2012:
"With Kentucky leading 62-55, the Commodores went on a 10-0 run in the final five minutes to seize control and stifled the Wildcats by switching to a zone defense." Linked (http://www.nola.com/ncaa/index.ssf/2012/03/vanderbilt_finds_rare_postseas.html)

I think Cal struggles coaching against a zone defense. Don't see why that's "stupid".

It's stupid, because you're using an isolated incident to make a sweeping generalization. Just like when people say Cal is dirty, because two of his seasons have been vacated in a nearly 25 year college career.

That 2012 championship game our guys have talked about how tired they were. They could have had something to do with it. You're just assuming it's the zone D, as if Stallings unlocked some masterful combination to beat Cal. (Why hasn't it worked consistently since then)? Stallings has beaten Cal maybe 3 or 4 times total. I don't think Stallings' zone D is enough to suggest Cal can't coach against a zone. S-C-O-R-E-B-O-A-R-D!

Consider:
Cal handled the West Virginia zone the very next year in the NCAAT. Cal handled John Beilein's 1-3-1 zone in the Elite 8 last year after only having two days to prepare without WCS (due to his season ending injury). I mean, come on, the results speak at the end of the day, and we do just fine against zones. Two weeks later after the game you referenced vs Vandy we beat Baylor's 2-3 zone in the Elite 8 with the same team you're talking about. Sometimes you have rough days whether the other team plays zone, man, or no defense.

GoDores
03-12-2015, 04:19 PM
It's stupid, because you're using an isolated incident to make a sweeping generalization. Just like when people say Cal is dirty, because two of his seasons have been vacated in a nearly 25 year college career.

That 2012 championship game our guys have talked about how tired they were. They could have had something to do with it. You're just assuming it's the zone D, as if Stallings unlocked some masterful combination to beat Cal. (Why hasn't it worked consistently since then)? Stallings has beaten Cal maybe 3 or 4 times total. I don't think Stallings' zone D is enough to suggest Cal can't coach against a zone. S-C-O-R-E-B-O-A-R-D!

lol



Consider:
Cal handled the West Virginia zone the very next year in the NCAAT. Cal handled John Beilein's 1-3-1 zone in the Elite 8 last year after only having two days to prepare without WCS (due to his season ending injury). I mean, come on, the results speak at the end of the day, and we do just fine against zones. Two weeks later after the game you referenced vs Vandy we beat Baylor's 2-3 zone in the Elite 8 with the same team you're talking about. Sometimes you have rough days whether the other team plays zone, man, or no defense.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Finally coming back with something of substance to defend Cal. I'm not gonna fact check you, I'll take your word on those games.

kentubbybasketball
03-12-2015, 04:31 PM
You don't have to check me. It's common knowledge that Huggins then, Scott Drew now, and John Beilein now play a lot of zone. Drew exclusively plays zone really. The success against good teams versus zones with different lineups suggests Cal knows how to beat a zone. To suggest otherwise is where the lack of substance is coming from.

In 2012, Im glad Vandy won. Those players credited that loss with winning the national title. Thanks for the assist if that's what you need.

VandyChuck
03-12-2015, 05:22 PM
Ahhh...so player conditioning is a Cal weakness.

kentubbybasketball
03-12-2015, 05:28 PM
It was that day if what those players said is true. Given that they are playing 3 or 4 nights a week in the NBA, I think Ant, MKG, and the rest are conditioned well.

XPS
03-12-2015, 07:54 PM
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t70/xps1973/940x.jpg (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/xps1973/media/940x.jpg.html)

Historic moment for Candy..

kentubbybasketball
03-12-2015, 08:02 PM
Lol. What a joke with those phantom tears.

iowacat
03-12-2015, 09:24 PM
Kt, Just except that you can't fix stupid no matter how hard you try to convince him. LOL

kentubbybasketball
03-13-2015, 03:44 AM
Those Vandy fans aren't stupid. They just want to antagonize. I like the banter with chuck and Go though. How have you been doing up in Iowa?

Bama_Man
03-13-2015, 11:56 AM
Right, it's like if you excel at one part of your job it's a detriment. In what other field is that how we view things?

To people that say how can Cal have 9 McD AAs and then lose in the NIT... when has that ever happened? We didn't have 9 guys that year for one. Two, everybody has bad years. Billy Donovan will probably be under .500 this season himself. It's the nature of the beast. The only coach that hasn't had a bad year would probably be Bill Self.

Cal is the best coach in the country at the moment. One national title, two title games, three final fours, and that's in the last four years. This year he's got the first unbeaten regular season team in a big league in 39 years. What other coach has a resume right there at the moment... the only one you could argue would be Pitino. However, Pitino can't beat Cal in the NCAAT in that same time frame, whether Cal has the higher seed or lower seed.

Then, to say Cal can't coach against a zone is stupid. Every team we've played this year has played zone. To say the only reason we win games against a zone is because the players are carrying him is stupid. Who is coaching these players in practice to beat the zone? The fact of the matter is we lost to West Virginia in 2010 when they played zone. If we're holding that one game against Cal and saying he can't coach against a zone, so be it. The evidence before and since that however suggests Cal has had plenty of success against zone. I mean, he's won over 83% of his games... I think he knows how to beat a zone.

LOL

Coach K 900 wins, four national titles, one in the last five years, and a zillion ACC titles. That's like saying Pete Carroll is a better coach than Mike Tomlin, even tho Tomlin has two Super Bowl rings but Carroll has won one more recently and just played for another.
Hell since 07, Self has a national title, another appearance in a title game, two sweet 16s and an elite 8.
Roy Williams has two national titles since 05.
Billy Donovan has two national titles since 05, back to back, three elite 8's and a final four.

Until he wins multiple national titles, Cal is not in the same class as guys like Pitino, Donovan, K, Williams, etc...
I equate him with Bill Self.

And you mention Billy D's mediocre season this year, but what about 2013? A team with Nerlens Noel (#1 pick), WCS your man crush, Archie Goodwin, Alex P., Kyle Wiltjer, Juliuis Mays, etc... and the best they could do was to lose to Robert Morris in the NIT?

It seems that you are unable to admit that without multiple titles, Cal should never be considered the best coach in basketball. If he wins it again this year, then absolutely he takes the crown. If not, he is stuck on the tier below with the Self's of the world.

GDawg88
03-13-2015, 01:47 PM
It seems that you are unable to admit that without multiple titles, Cal should never be considered the best coach in basketball. If he wins it again this year, then absolutely he takes the crown. If not, he is stuck on the tier below with the Self's of the world.
Isn't using national titles as the only measuring stick a little bit specious and arbitrary, though? I mean, Calipari's 2008 Memphis team would have won the national title if not for a miraculous 3-pointer by Mario Chalmers at the buzzer. Would Calipari really be that much greater of a coach if that shot rims out? To me he's the same guy.

I'm not saying national championships shouldn't matter. When you have four like Coach K, that's rarefied air. But I reject the idea that Calipari is inferior to coaches like Donovan and Pitino because he has one fewer national title.

kentubbybasketball
03-13-2015, 02:32 PM
Head to head Cal isn't inferior GD88.

Dean Smith finally working one in 1982. He said he's still the same coach as he was 40 minutes prior to beating Georgetown.

Herchel
03-13-2015, 03:11 PM
Head to head Cal isn't inferior GD88.

Dean Smith finally working one in 1982. He said he's still the same coach as he was 40 minutes prior to beating Georgetown.

I have a great Dean Smith story.
A friend was a patron of the Greater Greensboro Open. He had a motor home parked at the 14th tee, with a couple of young lovelies pouring drinks. Of course that is where I spent the tournament. This was 1976, and UNC had just lost the NC to Indiana.
I am sitting there when a middle aged woman entered and sat next to me. She was dressed to the nines in powder blue, and looked like a pillar of local society. She gets a drink, turns and says, "Did you hear they just fired Dean Smith?" I said no. She said, "Yes, they replaced him with Linda Lovelace because she doesn't choke on the big ones."

kentubbybasketball
03-13-2015, 03:57 PM
Haha.

Bama_Man
03-13-2015, 04:06 PM
Isn't using national titles as the only measuring stick a little bit specious and arbitrary, though? I mean, Calipari's 2008 Memphis team would have won the national title if not for a miraculous 3-pointer by Mario Chalmers at the buzzer. Would Calipari really be that much greater of a coach if that shot rims out? To me he's the same guy.

I'm not saying national championships shouldn't matter. When you have four like Coach K, that's rarefied air. But I reject the idea that Calipari is inferior to coaches like Donovan and Pitino because he has one fewer national title.


Dude what has Calapari done that makes him a better coach than Donovan? Billy Donovan won BACK TO BACK titles, appeared in another title game, and has made the Final Four as recently as last year. Im not saying national titles are the end all be all, but I think sustained success+national titles are the best barometer. Its not an insult to be compared to a guy like Bill Self is it? Or Jim Boeheim or Tom Izzo?

Pitino, like Cal has taken three different squads to the Final Four, has won more national titles (won titles at two schools, has anyone else ever done that?), and has been at the top of the food chain for a much longer period of time.

I wouldnt really bring up 08 to build up Calapari, most people agree that Bill Self really outcoached Cal in the final minutes of that game as Memphis was in complete control and should have never lost that game.

Cal has won one national title and played for what, one more? Tom Izzo is in the same boat, but he isnt near the recruiter Cal is so he did it with lesser talent.
Cal is king in terms of bringing in elite talent and getting them to gel, but I dont consider him the best coach in college basketball.
Its gonna be tough for anyone to be mentioned above Coach K, with the four titles, at least five final fours, constant 20-win seasons and NCAAT berths, etc...
Coach K is a great recruiter and able to land elite talent, but is also regarded as one of the best in game coaches and builders of teams. Sure he lost a few games early in the NCAAT, but that shouldnt take away from his legacy.

Where would you rank Cal among current coaches?

kentubbybasketball
03-13-2015, 04:47 PM
GD88, amazing Cal gets blasted for an NIT surrounded by two title games with completely different players, yet D gets a pass for his losing season this year. Just imagine if Cal got Ant and co. to return from his title team like D had the good fortune of.

What's that I hear... it's the hall of fame calling Cal before Izzo, Self, and Donovan.

If it's about national titles I'd argue Bo Ryan is the best coach, and Pearl is just as good as Self.

GDawg88
03-13-2015, 05:01 PM
You're really splitting hairs when you're comparing all these elite coaches. Coach K clearly has had the best career of anybody, but that doesn't mean he'd necessarily be my top pick today. Donovan, Pitino, Williams, and Boeheim have all done great things. I just don't see how they're objectively better than Calipari.

The real reason Memphis lost the title was because Derrick Rose and Chris Douglas-Roberts missed four out of five free throws in the final seconds, opening the door for Chalmers' game-tying shot. Maybe Self did outcoach Cal in overtime, but I'd ask you to look at their overall head-to-head record. Pretty sure Cal owns Self, who's a damn good coach in his own right.

Dawg in Dallas
03-13-2015, 05:41 PM
When this thread was posted I wondered who wasn't giving Cal respect. 11 pages later, I am wondering something different. It appears everyone respects him to some degree and most concede he is a very good coach.

Is the "respect he deserves," recognition that he is the best in the business? Or is it enough to group him with other very successful coaches - a top notch coach?

If Kentucky wins it all, and is undefeated, this will be one of the best seasons by any team in the history of CBB. Does that mean that Cal is one of the best coaches in the history of CBB? I don't think Rupp ever went undefeated (sure I will be corrected if wrong). If I am right, is Cal better than Rupp ever was?

kentubbybasketball
03-13-2015, 06:01 PM
We were 25-0 once under Rupp but declined an NCAAT bid. Funny how times change, huh?

To me, Cal deserves the benefit of doubt as the best coach in the game under the one and done era. Cal has been to every Elite 8 since 2006 besides the year we lost Nerlens Noel and the 2009 season when he settled for a Sweet 16. Think about that. Nobody's track record is as strong on this era. The Noel team was ranked the night he got injured, so that team would've made the field if nothing else. This last ten years has belonged to Calipari. The only other option would be Billy D but he's missed the NCAAT 3 times on that time frame. Three times! Plus a losing record this year. There's a reason Cal gets the best players.... he has the beat results. How many times has Coach K lost before the Sweet 16 lately? That's got to be considered.

Bama_Man
03-13-2015, 06:44 PM
What is considered the one and done era? 2007?

Donovan won a title in 07
08-NIT Semi's
08-NIT Quarters
09-NCAAT RD1
10-Elite Eight
11-Elite Eight
12-Elite Eight
13-Final Four

Cal:
07-Elite Eight
08-NCAAT Final
09-Sweet 16
10-Elite Eight
11-Final Four
12-Champs
13-NIT First Round
14-Title Game

So, its not as if Cal has been that much more successful in the one and done era than even Billy D.
They both have one national titles, D. has two NIT appearances, Cal has one; Cal has two runners up and a Final Four, Donovan has one Final Four. Cal has one Elite Eight and one Sweet 16, Donovan has three straight Elite Eights and a first round loss.

You act like no one has even came close to accomplishing to what Cal has done. In terms of bringing in talent you are right. No one gets better talent, and if Cal goes 40-0 this year he deserves to be considered the greatest active coach and up there all-time in terms of being great. Going undefeated in this era is unheard of, even if you have such a stacked roster.

Hell, look at Self's results in the one and done era:
07-Elite Eight
08-National Champs
09-Sweet 16
10-Round of 32
11-Elite Eight
12-Title Game
13-Sweet 16
14-Round of 32.

Self has the same amount championships, Cal has one more title game appearance (2-1) and Final Four's (3-1) but Self has made the NCAAT every year, making two Sweet 16s, two Elite Eights, and two round of 32 seasons. Self has a very strong resume, Cal's is better at the top but Self has not missed the NCAAT in the time frame.
Coach K has won a title in the era (2010), and made the tourney every year with two Sweet 16s and an Elite Eight.

Cal is considered the King of the one and done era because of his ability to bring in such great talent every season. He might not get the #1 recruit, but he will get the 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 9th best recruits in the nation on a yearly basis, future NBA lottery picks. He gets them to play together (usually) and puts them in great positions to succeed.
But IMO, to be considered the best coach in basketball, you have to show that you can win big on a consistent basis and sometimes do it with lesser teams.
Would anyone argue that Cal has not had the most talented roster in college basketball the past six or seven years, basically every single year?

Is Cal winning a title in 2012 with Anthony Davis more impressive than Kevin Ollie, a first year coach, winning an NCAA title with one first round draft pick (Shabazz Napier, who was like #30) and no other player aside from Boatright that would even get 5-10 MPG at UK?