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Bama_Man
12-03-2014, 01:24 PM
Huge LOL at the B12 today. Remember all that "One true champion" mess they kept spouting?

Well, apparently they decided to change their rules THIS week because they want a team in the playoff. Before, Baylor would be champs because they beat TCU head to head. Well now, they will be co-champs UNLESS neither team makes the playoff. In that case, the B12 would then recognize Baylor as sole champions.

What a joke.
http://deadspin.com/big-12-announces-there-could-be-two-one-true-champions-1665741360?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebo ok&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

SCgamecock2988
12-03-2014, 01:26 PM
Conference realignment ruined everything.

TexasFight
12-03-2014, 01:37 PM
Good move. Big 12! Big 12! Big 12!

Bama_Man
12-03-2014, 02:54 PM
Say what you want about the SEC (or PAC-12) but they would never just up and change the rules a week before the season is over. If I was a Baylor fan, I would raise hell and let it be known how ****ed up this is.

Dawg in Dallas
12-03-2014, 03:27 PM
They did NOT change their rules, but it still looks bad. Here is the rule:


The following procedure will determine the Big 12 Conference representative to the Sugar Bowl (or alternate College Football Playoff game when the Sugar Bowl is a semifinal) in the event of a first-place or alternate place tie (for the avoidance of doubt, only Conference records will be used throughout the process):
If two teams are tied, the winner of the game between the two tied teams shall be the representative.
If three or more teams are tied, steps 1 through 4 will be followed until a determination is made. Once a team has been eliminated from a multi-team comparison, it is dropped from further comparisons. If only two teams remain tied after any step, the winner of the game between the two tied teams shall be the representative.
The records of the three teams will be compared against each other
The records of the three teams will be compared against the next highest placed team(s) in the conference (4, 5 and 6….).
The highest ranked team in the first College Football Playoff poll following the completion of Big 12 regular season conference play shall be the representative unless the two highest ranked tied teams are ranked within one spot of the other in the College Football Playoff poll. In this case, the head-to-head results of the top two ranked tied teams shall determine the representative in the College Football Playoff.
The representative will be chosen by draw.



I have highlighted the relevant word. Hopefully folks can understand the difference in "representative" and "champion."

MKfromPA
12-03-2014, 04:19 PM
Huge LOL at the B12 today. Remember all that "One true champion" mess they kept spouting?

Well, apparently they decided to change their rules THIS week because they want a team in the playoff. Before, Baylor would be champs because they beat TCU head to head. Well now, they will be co-champs UNLESS neither team makes the playoff. In that case, the B12 would then recognize Baylor as sole champions.

What a joke.
http://deadspin.com/big-12-announces-there-could-be-two-one-true-champions-1665741360?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebo ok&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Correct. Makes sense. Baylor won head-to-head. Each team still has a game this week - Baylor vs. Kansas State & TCU vs. Iowa State. If they both win, Baylor wins the Big XII. IMO they should then be in the playoff because TCU would be an "at-large" team because they do not own the tiebreak.

So is what you are saying that TCU and Baylor are "co-champions" and TCU will be in the playoff and Baylor is not, even though Baylor won head-to-head?

Bama_Man
12-03-2014, 06:20 PM
They did NOT change their rules, but it still looks bad. Here is the rule:



I have highlighted the relevant word. Hopefully folks can understand the difference in "representative" and "champion."

Except they did. By that reading, Baylor would be champion with the head to head win. If you read the article or these articles, you would see the B12 is going to allow the higher ranking team, if included in playoff, to be conference champion. Instead of going by their rules, they decided to present co-champions, or recognize TCU as a conference champ even tho the rules state Baylor would be the true champion if they beat Kansas State.

http://m.espn.go.com/ncf/story?storyId=11964184&src=desktop&rand=ref~%7B%22ref%22%3A%22https%3A%2F%2Fwww.googl e.com%2F%22%7D

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/college/college-gridiron-365/os-selection-committee-not-big12-to-decide-best-team-20141201-post.html

Bama_Man
12-03-2014, 06:22 PM
Correct. Makes sense. Baylor won head-to-head. Each team still has a game this week - Baylor vs. Kansas State & TCU vs. Iowa State. If they both win, Baylor wins the Big XII. IMO they should then be in the playoff because TCU would be an "at-large" team because they do not own the tiebreak.

So is what you are saying that TCU and Baylor are "co-champions" and TCU will be in the playoff and Baylor is not, even though Baylor won head-to-head?

They will be co-champs if TCU makes the playoff, if not they will recognize Baylor as the single champion.

Dawg in Dallas
12-03-2014, 06:32 PM
Except they did. By that reading, Baylor would be champion with the head to head win. If you read the article or these articles, you would see the B12 is going to allow the higher ranking team, if included in playoff, to be conference champion. Instead of going by their rules, they decided to present co-champions, or recognize TCU as a conference champ even tho the rules state Baylor would be the true champion if they beat Kansas State.

http://m.espn.go.com/ncf/story?storyId=11964184&src=desktop&rand=ref~{"ref"%3A"https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F"} (http://m.espn.go.com/ncf/story?storyId=11964184&src=desktop&rand=ref~{)

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/college/college-gridiron-365/os-selection-committee-not-big12-to-decide-best-team-20141201-post.html

The Big 12 has no say in which of it's teams are selected in the playoff, if any. That decision is WHOLLY up to the committee. They did not change their rules. They look foolish, but the accusation is false.

Dawg in Dallas
12-03-2014, 06:33 PM
They will be co-champs if TCU makes the playoff, if not they will recognize Baylor as the single champion.

That is simply 100% false.

Bama_Man
12-03-2014, 08:29 PM
That is simply 100% false.

Um no, its completely accurate. The B12 is changing how their conference champion is decided twelve weeks into the season. Their rules state that a head to head winner is conference champ. Therefore, a win Saturday and Baylor should be the conference champion. The conference is now allowing TCU to claim a conference championship if the playoff committee thinks they should be in the playoff.

That is obviously a change compared to how the conference normally decides a champion, and it just occurred.

Their commissioner can *****foot around it all he wants, but the conference has alwaysnused head to head to determine a champion if two teams are tied. By allowing the committee to dictate is cowardly and stupid. Any other year, the B12 would crown Baylor as champion and they go to the Sugar Bowl. Now, they are saying that whichever team is ranked higher gets to be a co-champ.

If neither team makes the playoff, BAYLOR WOULD BE B12 CHAMPIONS AND REPRESENT THE CONFERENCE IN THE SUGAR BOWL. Those are facts. It is completely and 1,000% true.

Dawg in Dallas
12-03-2014, 08:50 PM
Um no, its completely accurate. The B12 is changing how their conference champion is decided twelve weeks into the season. Their rules state that a head to head winner is conference champ. Therefore, a win Saturday and Baylor should be the conference champion. The conference is now allowing TCU to claim a conference championship if the playoff committee thinks they should be in the playoff.

That is obviously a change compared to how the conference normally decides a champion, and it just occurred.

Their commissioner can *****foot around it all he wants, but the conference has alwaysnused head to head to determine a champion if two teams are tied. By allowing the committee to dictate is cowardly and stupid. Any other year, the B12 would crown Baylor as champion and they go to the Sugar Bowl. Now, they are saying that whichever team is ranked higher gets to be a co-champ.

If neither team makes the playoff, BAYLOR WOULD BE B12 CHAMPIONS AND REPRESENT THE CONFERENCE IN THE SUGAR BOWL. Those are facts. It is completely and 1,000% true.

You are completely 100% wrong. I posted the relevant rule. NOWHERE does it say champion. NOWHERE does the Big 12 indicate that if Baylor is in the playoff that they are champs and TCU isn't.

It isn't true and you are 1,000,000,000% wrong.

Words have meaning. Look at the rule I posted, and find the word champion in it ANYWHERE.

MKfromPA
12-04-2014, 10:42 AM
I think I understand.

If Baylor wins, they are Big XII champions, regardless of being in or out of the playoff.

If TCU wins, they are likely in the playoff. However, they are not Big XII Champions because Baylor beat them head-to-head. The committee is risking on taking a team that is not a "champion" of their conference. This is despite their "emphasis" on selecting conference champions for the playoff.

Bama_Man
12-04-2014, 04:20 PM
You are completely 100% wrong. I posted the relevant rule. NOWHERE does it say champion. NOWHERE does the Big 12 indicate that if Baylor is in the playoff that they are champs and TCU isn't.

It isn't true and you are 1,000,000,000% wrong.

Words have meaning. Look at the rule I posted, and find the word champion in it ANYWHERE.

I am completely right, I am sorry you fail to see it.

If one team is in the playoff, TCU/Baylor will be co champions. If not, Baylor will be the B12 champion and represent the Big XII and get the top seeded bowl game AHEAD of TCU. That is a fact. What you posted proves my point. The representative of the conference as the top seed, their champion, is determined first by conference record, then head to head as a tie. I have posted three articles explaining this. Are you unwilling to read them?

From an ESPN article-
"Only if TCU and Baylor are both left out of the top four would the league acknowledge Baylor's head to head win over TCU."


http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11964184/big-12-present-tcu-baylor-co-champions

Dawg in Dallas
12-04-2014, 04:27 PM
Good grief, you are apparently having difficult with basic English:

"Only if TCU and Baylor are both left out of the top four would the league acknowledge Baylor's head to head win over TCU."

I fail to see the word CHAMPION in that sentence. That sentence is completely consistent with their rule - which is about REPRESENTATIVE team for the purpose of the Sugar Bowl. The playoff committee chooses the four teams. If the committee fails to choose a Big 12 team, then pursuant to the EXISTING rules of the Big 12, they have a tie breaker system, not to name a conference champion, but to decide the Big 12 REPRESENTATIVE in the Sugar Bowl. TCU and Baylor would be co-champions if they both win their games this weekend. Period, end of story.

As I said in my original response, the Big 12 looks foolish - as their "one true champion" slogan is absurd. However, they are helped by folks who fail to understand simple definitions. The DID NOT CHANGE THEIR RULES. Show me the change. I have provided the entire rule. You have produced NOTHING that shows a change in that rule.

Dawg in Dallas
12-04-2014, 04:30 PM
I think I understand.

If Baylor wins, they are Big XII champions, regardless of being in or out of the playoff.

If TCU wins, they are likely in the playoff. However, they are not Big XII Champions because Baylor beat them head-to-head. The committee is risking on taking a team that is not a "champion" of their conference. This is despite their "emphasis" on selecting conference champions for the playoff.

Wrong. If Baylor and TCU both win, they are ch-champions. PERIOD. If TCU wins and Kansas State wins, they are co-champions. PERIOD. It is that simple.

The confusion arises only when choosing the team to represent the conference in the Bowl games. It is similar to what every confernce had before conference championship games. Many years, the SEC had con-champions. However, only one team got to represent the conference in the Sugar Bowl. It did not mean that the team not representing the SEC in the Sugar Bowl wan't considered con-champs, just that they didn't play in the preferred game.

MKfromPA
12-04-2014, 05:24 PM
@DID -

Okay. If both win, then the playoff committee will decide if TCU or Baylor is in the playoff. The chosen team will play in the playoff, and the other would play in one of the New Year's Six bowl games?

I agree with you the Big XII is ****ed up. Also, a big flaw the playoff is going to decide between TCU and Baylor in the playoff... when Baylor beat TCU already.... by simple logic Baylor should be going to the playoff.

Dawg in Dallas
12-04-2014, 05:32 PM
@DID -

Okay. If both win, then the playoff committee will decide if TCU or Baylor is in the playoff. The chosen team will play in the playoff, and the other would play in one of the New Year's Six bowl games?

I agree with you the Big XII is ****ed up. Also, a big flaw the playoff is going to decide between TCU and Baylor in the playoff... when Baylor beat TCU already.... by simple logic Baylor should be going to the playoff.

The playoff committee never has to defer to a conference. They don't have to pick a conference champion. There are no rules. They can do whatever they want.

The Big 12 Rules only state that if their teams are NOT chosen for the playoff, then the conference for the purpose of the Sugar Bowl will use head to head result - not to choose a champion, because they will be co-champs - to chose the REPRESENTATIVE for the bowl game.

It is easy to make the Big 12 look ridiculous without making false claims. Just rely on their stupid slogan - which has been a joke from the jump.

Dawg in Dallas
12-04-2014, 05:34 PM
Here is the rule - please note they never use the word champion, rather they use representative:

The following procedure will determine the Big 12 Conference representative to the Sugar Bowl (or alternate College Football Playoff game when the Sugar Bowl is a semifinal) in the event of a first-place or alternate place tie (for the avoidance of doubt, only Conference records will be used throughout the process):
If two teams are tied, the winner of the game between the two tied teams shall be the representative.
If three or more teams are tied, steps 1 through 4 will be followed until a determination is made. Once a team has been eliminated from a multi-team comparison, it is dropped from further comparisons. If only two teams remain tied after any step, the winner of the game between the two tied teams shall be the representative.
The records of the three teams will be compared against each other
The records of the three teams will be compared against the next highest placed team(s) in the conference (4, 5 and 6.).
The highest ranked team in the first College Football Playoff poll following the completion of Big 12 regular season conference play shall be therepresentative unless the two highest ranked tied teams are ranked within one spot of the other in the College Football Playoff poll. In this case, the head-to-head results of the top two ranked tied teams shall determine the representative in the College Football Playoff.
The representative will be chosen by draw.